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Ceremonial Magic
(http://www.occultforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=74)
- - Easy, or difficult?
(http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=4005)
Ludi 06-21-2004 09:43 PM
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I'm getting quite confused by what seems to me to be opposite or
conflicting information about evocation. In some threads people
talk about how difficult it is and not something a beginner can
do, and in other threads beginners are cautioned against
attempting evocation because of the danger. Which is the case? Is
evocation something so difficult only an adept can do it, or is it
something so easy a beginner can do it and get himself into
trouble? If it were difficult, it seems to me the biggest danger
for the beginner when attempting evocation would be that nothing
happens at all. If it were easy, then why are so many people
practicing so hard and still not able to achieve an evocation?
Just hope someone can clear this up. :)
Albino Crow 06-21-2004 09:52 PM
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Well, it really depends on what type of evocation you're dealing
with. Many times when people have differing opinions on it, it's
on differing topics. Bear that in mind also.
Kuroi Kaze 06-21-2004 09:53 PM
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I believe you are talking about Goetic evocation specifically, and
will reply accordingly. Goetic evocation performed by someone
without the proper magical background can be very dangerous. These
are very powerful energies, the worst thing that could happen to a
beginner is that he succesfully calls these forces (which isn't
the hard part), but cannot control or steer them.
Let's compare this to a plane. It isn't very hard to make the
engines of a plane start, and let the plane drive forward. Getting
it off the ground, and letting it do what you want to do takes a
lot of training, however. If you didn't receive the proper
training, you are putting yourself and the others in the plane in
an extremely dangerous situation.
Ludi 06-21-2004 09:56 PM
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Ok, that makes some sense. Well, I'm encouraged that evocation
itself isn't difficult, or at least certain kinds of evocation. I
was actually referring to *any* kind of evocation.
Thanks!
Kuroi Kaze 06-21-2004 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludi
Ok, that makes some sense. Well, I'm encouraged that evocation
itself isn't difficult, or at least certain kinds of evocation.
That was not exactly what I meant, I am sorry that I didn't
communicate better.
What I was trying to say is that calling these energies up is not
very hard, but this is only "starting the engine of the plane and
driving forward". That isn't evocation, evocation is "flying the
plane" succesfully.
Celtic SoulFire 06-21-2004 10:58 PM
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Yes, bringing forth an entity is nowhere near as difficult as
controlling it or stoping it from attacking you. Evocation isn't
purely the summoning of spirits. What use are they if they're
rampant and won't obey your commands? Summoning is easy ENOUGH
(not easy in its own right), but controlling is harder and
requires more experience, etc.
To and for by,
Celtic SoulFire.
Nero 06-21-2004 11:27 PM
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Alright you generally seemed confused so maybe I can clear some
things up for you.
First off to be able to just call up the spirit you must be able
to bring forth energy and channel it with focus of will. Any
magician worth his salt can do this with no problem. A beginner
has no feel for this energy and IMO if you cannot "feel" the
energy then it is next to impossible to apply it. This is the
reason so many newbi's fail at magick. Magick is more than words,
gestures and vibrations. These are all tools to draw and channel
power.
Even if you are able to accomplish this and call the spirit, what
then?
I AM put it best compairing it to roping a bear. You may get lucky
and spirit checks in to see who beeped him, get bored and leave.
If the spirit gets pissed then only an experenced magician can
protect himself. This is why everyone warns people away from
evokation until they are experenced enough to handle it. I hope
this helps.
Ashnook 06-22-2004 01:12 AM
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Also, sometimes it depends on what spirit you are trying to
summon. Some of them come faster than others. And yes I'll agree
with everyone else. Summoning is fairly easy, controlling is a
b*tch.
Kinjo 07-08-2004 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero
A beginner has no feel for this energy and IMO if you cannot
"feel" the energy then it is next to impossible to apply it.
it is a newbie question, but i really need to know.
this energy you're talking about. what is it and how is it
different, if it is, from chi or internal power generation :?:
Tzimtzum 07-08-2004 09:48 AM
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Well, first there's invocation and then there's evocation, they're
both quite different. Invocation is to call an external spirit or
entity. Evocation is to draw that force from within yourself. Both
are valid summoning techniques, but are quite different in
utility.
Like many here have said, the act of evocation isn't that
difficult, you're drawing that force from within yourself. Being
able to manipulate or handle them is a different matter. Yes,
there are nasty dangerous places within your psyche and soul,
controlling those can be quite dangerous to an untrained mage.
Ludi 07-08-2004 10:17 AM
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I get different definitions for evoke and invoke whoever I ask!
Tzimtzum 07-08-2004 10:39 AM
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Evocation \Ev`o*ca"tion\, n. [L. evocatio: cf. F. ['e]vocation.]
The act of calling out or forth.
Invocation \In`vo*ca"tion\, n. [F. invocation, L. invocatio.] 1.
The act or form of calling for the assistance or presence of some
superior being; earnest and solemn entreaty; esp., prayer offered
to a divine being.
:)
Ludi 07-08-2004 06:24 PM
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Yes, but as I say, I get a different answer whoever I ask.
"Evoke" is often used to denote the summoning of a being external
to oneself, not from within oneself.
"Invoke" is often used to denote the calling within of a being or
spirit.
So, as you see, opposite to what you are telling me, Tzimtzum.
But, it doesn't really matter what they mean, does it? Words mean
whatever we want them to mean, wouldn't you agree? ;)
palindroem 07-08-2004 07:31 PM
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Yeah, I think TzimTzum is presenting a different definition of
evoke and invoke then is usually used.
(TT, are you sure you meant is that way around :) )
I think what most everyone here is saying is . . .
Althought beginners aren't usually able to generate enough energy
(and invoke a proper divine "stance") to evoke entities . . . the
primary reason its discouraged it becaus beginners usually can't
control the energies that might be evoked . . . this is worth note
whether its a Goetic demon or an angelic being. Both need the
magician to be able to maintain a cohesive "relationship" during
the operation.
comedian777 07-08-2004 08:03 PM
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Yeah, you will run into many different definitions of the same
things, and an even larger number of opinions on same. You're
asking whether it is easy or difficult to summon (EVOKE) entities?
It depends. It depends upon the practitioner and it depends upon
the entity, it depends upon many factors. Try it, if you want. If
you want to do something bad enough, nobody's warnings or lack
thereof will stop you from trying at least.
Aodh 07-08-2004 08:14 PM
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And yet another common definition of invocation and evocation.
Invoke- To draw upon an external entities energy or persona to
bring about changes within oneself. (Sometimes also a bit like
'invited possesion')
Evoke- To actually summon forth a being to converse with, worship,
pay respects to, etc
Really the word you use isn't that important and it'll save much
grief if when you're being specific, just to explain what it is
you wish to do. And in my experiences with entity's, they'll come
most of the time, elaborte ritual or not, if you don't threaten
them etc :P Getting them to do things for you etc. is harder as,
like people, they have their own lives and agendas. Generally
inexperienced folks will be taken advantage of so you should
develop some street smarts before you try anything major or make
any pacts. *wink*
palindroem 07-08-2004 08:21 PM
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I know this'll sound corny, but . . .
If you attempt to evoke "something" . . . do some divinition
before and after. Might not only help you decide whether you'll
try in the first place, but can help you make sense of your
experience afterward.
Like "Did the being so-n-so even come to my evocation?" :)
Ludi 07-08-2004 08:22 PM
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By "they'll come," what do you mean exactly,Aodh? Do you mean they
will physically appear, seen with the physical eyes? Or that one
can "see" them in the mind's eye? Or that one will "feel" their
presence? Or that one will "hear" words in the mind's ear?
Thanks! :D
Aodh 07-08-2004 08:33 PM
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ANy manner of those. Everyone senses entities in their own way
once their sensitive enough. Many get one or a mixture of those
representations you mentioned. I tend to get a blurry outline, a
'mental hearing', and i can 'feel' their presence. It varies
though just as it does from person to person.
Ludi 07-08-2004 08:47 PM
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I'm really hoping for the physical appearance myself! Big hopes!
:D
Aodh 07-08-2004 08:51 PM
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I wouldn't get your hopes too up. It may never happen for you. But
then again it could your first time. Go into it with no
preconcieved notions of what it'll be like is my advice, no need
getting yourself all in a tizzy becaue ASMODAI talked with a lisp
and looked like smoke *grin*
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