CM Talking Points: Risks and
Dangers of Demon evokations
Grab
08-12-2004 07:09 AM
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Inspired by another thread, I'd like a serious discussion with
experienced practioners of demon (normally the Goetia) evocation.
If you don't have any practical experience in demonic evocations,
please give your opinions elsewhere, thanks.
Specifically, I want to here adress the danger of these
evocations.
First, there is the danger of something happening during the
ritual, an attack if one has a bad circle or similar. Second,
there is the danger of getting a result which has bad
side-effects. Third, there is the danger of the demon getting
hooks inside you, not exactly possessing or controlling you, but
rather influencing on a psychological level causing certain
behavioural pattern changes which even might lead you to a
destructive lifestyle, getting obsessed with whatever the demon
finds amusing or similar. Of course, there are probably other
dangers and some of these certainly overlap.
How have you experienced these dangers, and how do you protect
yourself from them? What other dangers should we be aware of?
I hereby open the discussion.
/Grab
Frater Manjet 08-12-2004 07:13 AM
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I feel this is worthy of becoming a Talking Point topic. So all
keep in mind it will be strictly monitored and any nonsense will
most assuredly receive swift warnings and posts edited or deleted
to maintain it's integrity.
Subject... Demonic evocation : Risks and dangers.
- VVV
Master of the Abyss 08-12-2004 07:56 AM
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Here's an excellent resource: http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delir...ogy/dangers.asp
.
John S. Brackett 08-12-2004 11:50 AM
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Demon Evocation
I have been working with the Goetia for four years, and I haven't
suffered any after effects. I attribute this to my prayers to God
and Jesus before and after the evocation, plus the Golden Dawn
banishing rituals (all of them). I must state that after my
opening prayers, I perform the Middle Pillar Exercise to center
myself in the magickal universe and to have God's power, the Holy
Spirit, course through and around me. I then have a small crystal
and look into it, intoning separately the names of the four
Archangels (Raphael, Gabriel, Michael, and Uriel) until I feel
their presence in the room, protecting me. I then replace the
crystal with a black mirror, place the demon's sigil in the
triangle while wearing it also around my neck. Then then perform
the Qabalistic Cross. I also have the Seal of Solomon attached to
my robe as protection and keep a crucifix in the circle with me
for protection. If the demon seems menancing to me, which it
sometimes does, I threaten to burn the sigil. Believe it or not,
this seems to work some times. If not I pick up the crucifix and
(I know it's corney) yell "The power of God and Jesus Christ
compell you to obey me." This works too.
Some magicians I have talked to state that they will never ever
use the Goetia again, because of after effects of seeing menacing
shadows, hearing voices whisper death threats in their LEFT ear,
being attacked by demons in the dream state, smelling a horrible
odor sometimes, to name a few.
I hope this helps you in your quest.
Peace, Light, Love
LadyHydralisk 08-13-2004 02:47 PM
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John your post made me smile out of amusement, you seem like a
really powerful magician but it's cool you have a sense of humor
about the Jesus thing. Alot of people on the boards here ask about
christian ritual so it's good to get that perspective for once
from a serious practitioner.
I knew someone in Georgia once who swore by the christian system,
too.
I use the Goetia, or more appropriately the demonic because I feel
compelled to study and utilize it. It's not for everyone and I
still don't know why I research in that area, but it is an
integral part of my magicial growth process, there's something
missing for me that can only be found in that realm. Eventually I
do plan on actually stepping into that dimension where they live
and encountering them on their own ground.
Talk about horror stories, I've seen and heard it all. The most
interesting story I've ever heard, though was one from samesaid
guy in Georgia who told me about a circle in Europe, a group
evocation I think in France, where the people where found (dead)
with all the bones in their body shattered. Unfortunately I lost
contact with him shortly after I moved but the general gist of the
story is what intrigued me aside from the details.
I think the greatest danger is losing your soul, which is very
real for the more despondent and desperate among us. It's not
something to go into with desperation in your heart, (the story
of)Faust demonstrates that quite nicely.
I've had personal experiences ranging from mild subconsciously
permissioned posession, non-life threatening attacks resulting in
mild injury as well as gateways being opened for other
oppurtunists to congregate in the area of the evocation. I think
this is avoidable with the proper and holistic approach to
preparation, evocation, dismissal and banishing. The whole house,
really, needs to be made into a sacred space so that you will not
be bothered during off hours. And I think on body protection
especially physical representations like silver, need to be worn
at all times outside of the home in addition to servitors and
words of power.
Your neighbors may also be affected by the going ons at your house
or wherever you evocate. So keep that in mind if you want to
instruct the demon to leave them alone if you think they are a
target.
flyinhighagain 08-13-2004 09:45 PM
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The power of Christ compells you!!!
""If not I pick up the crucifix and (I know it's corney) yell "The
power of God and Jesus Christ compell you to obey me." This works
too.""
Corney?????
You speak the name of the Christ and the spirits obey in fear?
If you spoke another name and the spirits obeyed what would you
think about the entity behind this word of power?????
It's not corney at all - it's exactly what it appears to be an
example of REAL power.
Because he actually is who the christians say he is.
Flyinhighagain
Lawrence "Diablo" Leon 08-14-2004 12:17 AM
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It�s becoming more and more difficult to me. Once I could say, "in
name of Christ". Later, "in name of the Mother Goddess". But
today, I have no names at all to claim at. I must work alone.
I�m in my way to, someday, someone calling "in name of Lawrence
Diablo" (LOL)
On the way towards Kether, there are places of silence, where God
finally has no name, no shape and you firmly believe that every
name is a lie, every prayer is a blasphemy and every shape is
idolatry.
A little Thelemic, but it�s the way I�m living Magick.
May you have Success,
Lawrence "Diablo" Leon
John S. Brackett 08-14-2004 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk
John your post made me smile out of amusement, you seem like a
really powerful magician but it's cool you have a sense of humor
about the Jesus thing. Alot of people on the boards here ask about
christian ritual so it's good to get that perspective for once
from a serious practitioner.
Thank you for your input. Yes I see the Christian aspects of my
ceremonies as a way of protection that works for me, since at one
time I was a devout Catholic; however, it may not work for someone
affilliated with another religion, as you know. I would emphasis,
as you probably would, that someone integrate their religious
figures into their evocations. This technique, I find, is a very
powerful protection factor. I try to keep a sense of humor in all
my endeavors. I also feel compelled to perform demon evocations;
it seems to fill a deep spiritual need for me. As the song goes
that the Steve Miller Band sang "...You have to go through Hell to
get to Heaven...."
I have another horror story that you might find interesting. In
the original movie "The Exorcist," some of the demon sounds that
came out of Linda Blair's mouth were actually the taped sounds
that came out of the real life boy's mouth that the story was
based on. I find that neat.
Peace, Light, Love
edit: fixed quote function - VVV
Grab 08-14-2004 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John S. Brackett
I would emphasis, as you probably would, that someone integrate
their religious figures into their evocations.
I live in a very secularized part of the world, and none in my
family has been very religious, so being also a scientist, I've
always been an atheist. After diving into CM, I'm not really sure
any longer, at least I can now accept "God" as a good
psychological "energy" to use in rituals.
All religions still seem utterly absurd to me, however, so I don't
have your advantage when doing Goetia operations.
Quote:
I also feel compelled to perform demon evocations; it seems to
fill a deep spiritual need for me.
Regardie writes about how some Goetia evocations can be a good way
to perform the Great Work. (That is, if you want to do the Great
Work.)
/Grab
ChaosTech 08-14-2004 01:45 PM
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Why are so many interested in demons is the question I ask? Is it
because they are so primal in nature? Is it because the raw power
they possess and represent? Or what?
Personally I'm not a fan of wrestling with aligators, grizzly
bears, lions, etc? And these creatures are nothing compared to
demons, even though they are powerhouses in themselves. Before one
dares work with the classicly called "infernal entities," one
should ask yourself if playing with poisonous snakes, wrestling
with incredibly animals, etc, sounds appealing to oneself. If so
then by all means summon demons, as you will probably get alot out
of the art, but I suspect that the majority of human magicians
would find practicing such a dangerious art as insane. Granted if
you are a religious magician and have a firm link with a deity,
this is much safer, as your power over the demons comes directly
from your god, and indeed this is how the Solomonic grimiore(s)
are set up and for a good reason. If you don't have such a faith
in the power that you are calling to protect you and grant you
control over the demons, demon summoning is indeed insane, and
this I believe is why so many "horror" stories have happened.
Unfortunately many young magicians (inexperienced), because of
popular culture, rebellion from the traditional, etc, think that
"summoning a demon would be cool," or somewhere along that train
of thought, and because of this not always but occasionally run
into a serious problem. You don't have to be religious at all to
understand the concept of a demon. Just look at the drawings and
read the descriptions of them in a symbolic psychological sense,
and it should be quite apparent what a demon is and isn't. Maybe
I'm just biased, ignorant, dogmatic, superstitious, or whatever,
but demon summoning should be left to experienced magicians who
understand what they are doing and are at a level of personal
development to accept responcibility of any failures in the
practice of this art. Demons are very interesting entities, and
the treasures of working with them is great indeed, but beginners
and for that matter any magician that has not reached a level of
great self control and self understanding, I advise to stick to
deities as they are much more gentle and forgiving of a magician's
mistakes should he/she make them. After deities elemental entities
should be worked with. Demons should come last, that is if the
magician even desrires to work with them. All this buttered up new
age bullshit ideas that "demons can't hurt you unless you let
them," or that "they aren't as bad as they are described", or even
the recent "they are just ancient pagan gods," is just that,
bullshit, and the people who say such things are totally ignorant
of not only the universe as a whole, but their own selves. To
clairify the last statement, indeed many Judeo-Christian "demons"
are indeed modelled off the opposing pagan religions of the Middle
East and Europe, but they are literally demonized concepts of
them, and as an example the Astarte of the Canaanites is not
hardly the same power as the Ashteroth of the Judeo-Christian
demonology as any magician experienced in solomonic goetia and
pagan theurgy will tell you.
But this is just my opinion, and as hermeticism has taught me, all
polarities can be reversed, and I don't deny that such powers
could be made gods, and vice versa in the eyes of the magician who
wished to do so, and indeed all of reality revolves around
perception of the one beholding it, but deprogramming the psyche
and reprogramming it are not something done in a short time, so to
the majority of western raised magicians I think my above
statements about demons holds true.
Noxlux 08-14-2004 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosTech
Why are so many interested in demons is the question I ask? Is it
because they are so primal in nature? Is it because the raw power
they possess and represent? Or what?
Personally I'm not a fan of wrestling with aligators, grizzly
bears, lions, etc? And these creatures are nothing compared to
demons, even though they are powerhouses in themselves. Before one
dares work with the classicly called "infernal entities," one
should ask yourself if playing with poisonous snakes, wrestling
with incredibly animals, etc, sounds appealing to oneself. If so
then by all means summon demons, as you will probably get alot out
of the art, but I suspect that the majority of human magicians
would find practicing such a dangerious art as insane. Granted if
you are a religious magician and have a firm link with a deity,
this is much safer, as your power over the demons comes directly
from your god, and indeed this is how the Solomonic grimiore(s)
are set up and for a good reason. If you don't have such a faith
in the power that you are calling to protect you and grant you
control over the demons, demon summoning is indeed insane, and
this I believe is why so many "horror" stories have happened.
Unfortunately many young magicians (inexperienced), because of
popular culture, rebellion from the traditional, etc, think that
"summoning a demon would be cool," or somewhere along that train
of thought, and because of this not always but occasionally run
into a serious problem. You don't have to be religious at all to
understand the concept of a demon. Just look at the drawings and
read the descriptions of them in a symbolic psychological sense,
and it should be quite apparent what a demon is and isn't. Maybe
I'm just biased, ignorant, dogmatic, superstitious, or whatever,
but demon summoning should be left to experienced magicians who
understand what they are doing and are at a level of personal
development to accept responcibility of any failures in the
practice of this art. Demons are very interesting entities, and
the treasures of working with them is great indeed, but beginners
and for that matter any magician that has not reached a level of
great self control and self understanding, I advise to stick to
deities as they are much more gentle and forgiving of a magician's
mistakes should he/she make them. After deities elemental entities
should be worked with. Demons should come last, that is if the
magician even desrires to work with them. All this buttered up new
age bullshit ideas that "demons can't hurt you unless you let
them," or that "they aren't as bad as they are described", or even
the recent "they are just ancient pagan gods," is just that,
bullshit, and the people who say such things are totally ignorant
of not only the universe as a whole, but their own selves. To
clairify the last statement, indeed many Judeo-Christian "demons"
are indeed modelled off the opposing pagan religions of the Middle
East and Europe, but they are literally demonized concepts of
them, and as an example the Astarte of the Canaanites is not
hardly the same power as the Ashteroth of the Judeo-Christian
demonology as any magician experienced in solomonic goetia and
pagan theurgy will tell you.
But this is just my opinion, and as hermeticism has taught me, all
polarities can be reversed, and I don't deny that such powers
could be made gods, and vice versa in the eyes of the magician who
wished to do so, and indeed all of reality revolves around
perception of the one beholding it, but deprogramming the psyche
and reprogramming it are not something done in a short time, so to
the majority of western raised magicians I think my above
statements about demons holds true.
Hi ChaosTech,
I would like to ask you what concrete damage from demons you have
experienced or have certain knowledge about?
I would also like to offer some comments regarding your remarks
about how demons are, not necessarily to contradict them, but
perhaps to offer a view from a different angle.
There is an old story about a tibetan monk who visited a
psychotherapist friends house in california. They decided to put
on a video, and the therapist put on the exorcist, the old
verwsion. After a while he started to notice that his tibetan
friend was looking quite uncomfortable, he started worrying ...
tibetan monk, demon - perhaps not a good combination ... so he
asked if his friend was disturbed by the demon. "Oh no, the demon
is fine, I like him, I just feel bad for the priest."
To me it appears that much has happened since the fourtheenth
century. We no longer hold the view that the earth is the centre
of the universe. It is since Darwin no longer the most rational
thing to believe that god created the animals. And after the
commercial and political forces have exploited Freuds ideas about
our true nature we are VERY used to being confronted by themes in
the culture appealing to something else than the ideal self of
persons say 50, say 150, say 500 years ago.
I spose I am driving towards a point sorts of here that respect,
love and compassion may be our greatests assets in dealing with
demons. Like Geezus said, what does it say that we love our
friends - everyone does that already, when we start loving the
enemies, then we start transforming the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinhighagain
""If not I pick up the crucifix and (I know it's corney) yell "The
power of God and Jesus Christ compell you to obey me." This works
too.""
Corney?????
You speak the name of the Christ and the spirits obey in fear?
If you spoke another name and the spirits obeyed what would you
think about the entity behind this word of power?????
It's not corney at all - it's exactly what it appears to be an
example of REAL power.
Because he actually is who the christians say he is.
Flyinhighagain
Hi flinhighagain,
thank you fro sharing your view on the ontological status of the
mythological image of christ. I happen to disagree, but I am sure
you are well intentioned.
(However, I agree absolutely with the practical use of the
christfigure. I have found him MOST efficient in many contexts. It
matters not that I on a rational level do not believe.)
Would you care to share the risks and dangers of demons in your
experience?
.................................................. .....
.
.
.
.
.
As for me I think the most common danger with evocation is
alienation.
Then there are dangers for the soul. They are quite tricky to
describe - at least the ones I have experienced. That does not
mean they are not real.
ALl the best
Nex
Was I Deleted, Again? 08-15-2004 12:10 AM
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Alienation..?
Noxlux,
Pick up on your comment about alienation. Can you give either a
definition or a description. Alienation from oneself (ie, a state
of self unknowing, dissolution from one's practical matters, or
separation from emotional facets of oneself, etc??), from society
(self-explanitory) or from other magickal works/beings.
You have chosen a very interesting word for me concerning this
topic and I would appreciate if you develop its definition,
according to your experience of it.
Thanks,
JQP
....though the heavens fall.
John S. Brackett 08-15-2004 03:01 AM
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Demons
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosTech
.All this buttered up new age bullshit ideas that "demons can't
hurt you unless you let them," or that "they aren't as bad as they
are described", ..
Demons are definitely dangerous, and they are not to be evoked
lightly. If not properly banished (and some, if the Necronomicon
is truly workable, can not be banished with ease, if at all), big
trouble can ensue for the magician. Thank God that I have a deep
faith in God in all its forms to help me throughout life. Some
magicians say that the Goetic demons are parts of the human
psyche, although I do not agree, and evoking these demons is
bringing a person's darkest parts of the mind in full view. If
this theory is true, then a person must be able to control their
primal animal nature to kill, rape, injure, and mutilate. This
theory should be given great weight, along with the theory the
demons are separate evil entities, by the magician. The magician
must be ready to wrestle with the "Devil" in either case. Some
magicians that gave up the Goetia demonstrated mental abberations
when evoking demons such as hallucinations, hearing voices, and
noticing bad smells. In most cases, these abberations went away
after the magicians gave up the Goetia. So the magician must ask
himself/herself "Is the gain worth the trouble?" and more
importantly "If I get a strong impulse to kill or injure someone
or something, can I control it?" The magician must also be ready
to acknowledge that tampering with demon evocation might drive
them crazy in the long run. One night I was watching "Unexplained
Mysteries" and there was an individual who had the demon Lucifuge
as his master and stated that he killed his girlfriend because
Lucifuge told him to do it. A dramatic case but unfortunately a
true one. If the magician is going to mess around with demon
evocation, he or she should know the dangers and then accept
responsibillities for the outcomes, good or bad.
Noxlux 08-15-2004 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Was I Deleted, Again?
Noxlux,
Pick up on your comment about alienation. Can you give either a
definition or a description. Alienation from oneself (ie, a state
of self unknowing, dissolution from one's practical matters, or
separation from emotional facets of oneself, etc??), from society
(self-explanitory) or from other magickal works/beings.
Yes.
Actually I think you summed it up pretty well, and it is difficult
for me to offer better comments, but I will have a go.
Working with goetia, or any sort of darker magicks, separates the
magickian from the rest of society. One has a very private thing
one does which one cannot talk about with the rest of the world.
Sometimes I have entertained myself by imagining what would happen
at a workplace were I to tell the truth about my doings. "So, how
was your weekend?" "Great, I summoned Nyaralathotep, and he taught
me how to read other peoples minds. I am busy doing field-testing
right now. What did you do during yours?"
Working with the darker magicks is also impopular even amongst
many who are into some sort of esoteric practices. I have seen
people who really believe in meditation or the fourth way or
wathever SCOFF at the notion of ceremonial magick.
And even when one is fortunate enough to have friends who do dark
magicks to ... well, there is always the injunction for silence,
and I suppose every practicing magickian knows that it is there
for good reasons.
I don�'t particularly believe in the notion of a true self
(although most definitely there are false selves :-)) but in my
experience goetia can remove me from my true self. As well as make
me care less about "mundane" practical matters.
A bit like doing drugs actually :-)
Please share some of your own experience.
Nox
pAmphAge 08-15-2004 03:46 AM
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I love the Goetia, and every single spirit I've worked with. (At
least 30.) In fact I'm such a fan of the Goetia that I charge the
sigil's of my favorite spirits directly onto my wand (a baseball
bat I've had since I was a kid...it's about 20 years old now.)
As far as dangers, I do believe there are some. In my experience
they take the sword far less seriously than you might imagine. The
wand is the key to controlling them in a harmonious
fashion--especially if you are going to regularly work with
multiple spirits. I truly believe that the dangers of the Goetia
can be limited by only working with one spirit--not that I've ever
followed this advice. They are just too much fun! Like a big box
of candies!
Specific dangerous experiences I've had have been minimal, but
here is a notable one:
One time I was up in Griffith Park so that I might plunge my air
dagger into the earth and meditate upon that. The first trip was
great (Salvia)...I got to bond with Gaea, and I introduced all my
spirits to her (i.e. trying to ground them). Then in the very same
spot, I did another Salvia trip, but this time, I seemed to have
been caught off guard and either the collection of my spirits, or
a foreign spirit (I still can't tell which, though going back and
working with all my spirits seperately, none of them "said" they
did it), started pulling me backwards, and trying to pull me into
a different time, or alternate time. (sounds silly I know, but I
really felt I was going back to a younger time in my life) and *phsycially*
they were pulling on me as hard as a real person with thier arms
around my waist. I fought it off, yelled, "Fuck no," jumped up,
and yanked my dagger out of the earth and left the area...shaken
up for at least 15 minutes. Had they succeeded in pulling me back,
I would have tumbled down a rather large hill. I doubt I would
have died, but I would definitely have gotten scratched and beat
up and possibly broken something. AT ANYRATE, I attribute even
this minor danger to a) working outside my temple, and b) not
having my wand with me.
Also, for fans of the Goetia I strongly reccomend Izabael (
http://neurotique.com/izabael.html ) She's powerful, canny, and
helpful. She may seem disobedient at times, but that's only
because she's way better than you at getting what you want. She
also can be quite sexy.
I have a burning question about Goetic spirits and their
perception of time, but I suppose I should start that in its own
thread.
pAmphAge
Grab 08-15-2004 04:06 AM
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On a minor detail level, I'm curious what banishing is sufficient
for the Goetia demons. Are they 100% banished by a successful
element-based banishing ritual, such as the LBRP? Can we safely
eliminate the BRH from the evocation ritual?
(I don't mind the BRH at all, quite the opposite. It's just
sometimes any additional ritual is a time-eater, when you want a
"quickie" with some demon.)
pAmphAge 08-15-2004 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab
On a minor detail level, I'm curious what banishing is sufficient
for the Goetia demons. Are they 100% banished by a successful
element-based banishing ritual, such as the LBRP? Can we safely
eliminate the BRH from the evocation ritual?
(I don't mind the BRH at all, quite the opposite. It's just
sometimes any additional ritual is a time-eater, when you want a
"quickie" with some demon.)
I'll probably get flamed for this, but if you want to keep the
spirit you are working with as a familiar type spirit that will
grow stronger with you over the years, there is no need to banish
him at all. You've made it clear to him with your Will what your
desires are, and he can come and go as he wishes.
ChaosTech 08-15-2004 04:19 PM
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I also wanted to add something I forgot. The "strong faith in a
deity" approach is for the RHP magicians, equally as important and
effective though, and especially in the LHP philosophy, would be a
strong faith in the diety within, i.e. yourself. All and all
though, I think we all agree that working with goetia is a worthy
pursuit, but dangerious if a magician doesn't have his shit
together so to speak, which few beginners do, which is the point
of my arguement.
Also Noxlux, I totally agree about your statement of respect,
love, and compassion as such concepts are binding things and bring
one extremely close to spirit (God, the All, Chaos, etc.), and so
are extremely powerful when invoked into one's conciousness, and
your story about the monk is both humerious and so true, but again
few beginners are aware of why this is so, and respect, love, and
compassion can be quickly turned into hatred, fear, and apathy,
without the key element of understanding.
But of course, dabblers and beginners have and will continue to
experiment with the goetia, and yeald bad experiences bred from
actual occult phenomenon from the demon in question, or their own
fearful dellusions of the unknown parts of reality, both within
and without, and so the only reason I even waste my time posting
what I have is to possibly illuminate any such people that read
this with my opinion which atleast may give food for thought to
them, and or bring to the attention of experienced magicians why
it may be harmful to suggest this practice to beginners. By all
means though, as with whatever I post and say, if I am wrong I
more than welcome anyone to show me why and illuminate me instead.
:)
As far as negative experiences, I admit my "horror stories" are
purely second hand tellings. Although a few of the stories I know
the people involved very well, and doubt they would fabricate a
story. As everything else they have ever shared with me about
magick has been correct, well except for once, one of of them
telling me a certain amulet was from Three Books of Occult
Philoshopy, when it was really from The Black Pullet, although the
misinformation was unintentional as they had simply been mistaken.
The stories I have heard though have never involved any kind of
physical death, mental breakdown, or anything of this sort and
simply involved just alot of fright, anxiety, and phenomenon
ranging from physical objects being thrown to strange sounds.
Improper circle casting, and banishing were the cause though.
flyinhighagain 08-16-2004 11:54 PM
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Hello Nuxlox,
You wrote earlier
"However, I agree absolutely with the practical use of the
christfigure. I have found him MOST efficient in many contexts. It
matters not that I on a rational level do not believe.)"
Please do not take this in the wrong fashion but you are correct -
It does not matter what you believe - Christs power and the power
of the Godhead which stands behind him does not depend on anyone's
belief or disbelief.
It's what is observed to be effective that is important. If I
throw a large rock up in the air and it comes back down on my head
crushing it :) It matters not that I believe in the force of
gravity that cause the rock to fall. My head is still crushed and
still gravity exists.I have observed Christ name be effective
against demonic entities from every tradition I have encountered.
You Might want to examine in your own experience just why it is
that Jesus Christ's name can provoke such reactions in our friends
- even when you don't believe in him or his power. I am not trying
to convert you I am not a Christian. However, I know what I have
seen.
I have called many demons and they are always dangerous. They all
have one source
one father no matter what their names are or what lies they tell.
They can be usefull for gaining the things of this world but you
give away something which has more value than what they can give
you. They always come for payment from those they have aided.
For several generations certain individuals in my family were
selected to keep our end of an agreement that was made long ago.
To serve someone who had aided my ancestors when they were dying.
Call him/her Satan or whatever you wish. My ancestors family were
starving - they were sitting around watching each other waste away
- they were christians but the family leader had had enough of
praying to a god who did not seem to answer. He asked for help
from Satan and it was given - my family not only survived but we
became as generations progressed very successfull - as long as we
kept our part of the agreement - I believed that the father as I
knew him was omnipotent - until I saw him and several powerful
members of my family and others who accepted our father get their
pychic asses kicked by the faith of a fraile priest. Actually it
was not the priest who defeated us, for no person born of woman
could defeat my then master - it was the priests master who came
to his aid as a result of his faith that defeated mine - I do not
follow the Christ in any traditional sense -
But I do know who he is my friend,
and so do our bestest buddies the demons.
The danger to your soul is profound - the attack of demonic
entities is almost exclusively psychological in nature. You don't
even know you are being attacked because it most often does not
feel like an attack you still believe you are in control as you
begin to serve the demons will in some manner - this usually will
end in your destruction. You see their father hates life all life
because it is the creation of his adversary. It really amuses me
to see the posts of people who say they can control a real demonic
entity through the force of their will. Unless god is with you in
some fashion you will be crushed or controlled most likely both.
IMHO most of the people who post to this forum who believe they
are contacting and controlling demons are mentally unstable,
lying, deluded, trippin on bad acid or all of the above.
If a demonic entity ever really shows up at one of your evocations
and decides to show you its true nature you will know - you will
also know that your human will is no match for this being - its
like standing next to a mountain.
And you will know something else fear.........as you have never
known fear before in your life......
Over & out for now
Flyinghighagain
pAmphAge 08-17-2004 01:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting stuff here, and I respect your comments, however I
find that "power of Christ" seems to have more effect over *other
people* than Goetic spirits. They aren't all that interested in
Christ, I have to tell you (they were around long before him). You
are better off with God names from the old testament--and even
BETTER off with names and verses from the Book of the Law.
However, if it were my choice to dominate another human's will, I
would for sure grab the new testament and a cross.
Was I Deleted, Again? 08-17-2004 01:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D&D: Movie of the Week
flyinhighagain, I agree with your assertion - the student is not
the master - and I agree as much with your perception and logic.
However, you have included a movie of the week in your post.
From my experience with a demonic entity, I did call upon God's
name and compel the demon to depart. I was not in a protective
circle or had a banishing of any sort. The entity did not appear
in a triangle. In fact, the entity came to me after I was writing
a fictional account of ThoTh, a name I was not familiar with at
the time. I stood trying to discount its validity for 2-3 long
minutes before calling upon God as the Bible instructs. I am
convinced, particularly by the quickness of its departure, that I
had encountered something with a personal Will that exists outside
of my 16 year old's imagination.
It is an experience I will never forget.
I agree that most of the posts I read here sound as you describe.
Your movie of the week, with its attendant lack of detail, throws
me for a loop.
JQP
....though the heavens fall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinhighagain
[....]For several generations certain individuals in my family
were selected to keep our end of an agreement that was made long
ago. To serve someone who had aided my ancestors when they were
dying. Call him/her Satan or whatever you wish. My ancestors
family were starving - they were sitting around watching each
other waste away - they were christians but the family leader had
had enough of praying to a god who did not seem to answer. He
asked for help from Satan and it was given - my family not only
survived but we became as generations progressed very successfull
- as long as we kept our part of the agreement - I believed that
the father as I knew him was omnipotent - until I saw him and
several powerful members of my family and others who accepted our
father get their pychic asses kicked by the faith of a fraile
priest. Actually it was not the priest who defeated us, for no
person born of woman could defeat my then master - it was the
priests master who came to his aid as a result of his faith that
defeated mine - I do not follow the Christ in any traditional
sense -
But I do know who he is my friend,
and so do our bestest buddies the demons.
[...]
Flyinghighagain
malachius 08-17-2004 06:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very interesting stuff from both parties indeed. I respect both
views. I would agree that most if not all of the spirits I have
had dealings with respond to the name of christ but it seems to me
they fear only when his name is used by those who truly believe.
That must have been some experience Flyinhighagain
I think you not only got your asses kicked but I believe you were
in a fashion converted to christ by this experience. I see more
respect & faith for him in you than I see in most of the so called
christians I run into now and then.
As far as controlling people its obvious that the christian church
& others have controlled people on a vast scale via christ name.
From what I know of christ I am not sure he would be very happy
with a lot of the things which have been done/comitted in his
name.
However, I would not confuse his representation by organised
religion with the true man/god( if he existed) and his message.
Just my 2 cents worth
Now my dog needs to take me for a walk
Malachius
Grab 08-17-2004 07:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting this about Jesus, and being aware that this is getting
off topic, I can't resist... Did any of you EVOKE him? After all,
he IS a mythological character.
Noxlux 08-17-2004 08:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinhighagain
Hello Nuxlox,
You wrote earlier
"However, I agree absolutely with the practical use of the
christfigure. I have found him MOST efficient in many contexts. It
matters not that I on a rational level do not believe.)"
Please do not take this in the wrong fashion but you are correct -
It does not matter what you believe - Christs power and the power
of the Godhead which stands behind him does not depend on anyone's
belief or disbelief.
It's what is observed to be effective that is important. If I
throw a large rock up in the air and it comes back down on my head
crushing it :) It matters not that I believe in the force of
gravity that cause the rock to fall. My head is still crushed and
still gravity exists.I have observed Christ name be effective
against demonic entities from every tradition I have encountered.
You Might want to examine in your own experience just why it is
that Jesus Christ's name can provoke such reactions in our friends
- even when you don't believe in him or his power. I am not trying
to convert you I am not a Christian. However, I know what I have
seen.
I have called many demons and they are always dangerous. They all
have one source
one father no matter what their names are or what lies they tell.
They can be usefull for gaining the things of this world but you
give away something which has more value than what they can give
you. They always come for payment from those they have aided.
For several generations certain individuals in my family were
selected to keep our end of an agreement that was made long ago.
To serve someone who had aided my ancestors when they were dying.
Call him/her Satan or whatever you wish. My ancestors family were
starving - they were sitting around watching each other waste away
- they were christians but the family leader had had enough of
praying to a god who did not seem to answer. He asked for help
from Satan and it was given - my family not only survived but we
became as generations progressed very successfull - as long as we
kept our part of the agreement - I believed that the father as I
knew him was omnipotent - until I saw him and several powerful
members of my family and others who accepted our father get their
pychic asses kicked by the faith of a fraile priest. Actually it
was not the priest who defeated us, for no person born of woman
could defeat my then master - it was the priests master who came
to his aid as a result of his faith that defeated mine - I do not
follow the Christ in any traditional sense -
But I do know who he is my friend,
and so do our bestest buddies the demons.
The danger to your soul is profound - the attack of demonic
entities is almost exclusively psychological in nature. You don't
even know you are being attacked because it most often does not
feel like an attack you still believe you are in control as you
begin to serve the demons will in some manner - this usually will
end in your destruction. You see their father hates life all life
because it is the creation of his adversary. It really amuses me
to see the posts of people who say they can control a real demonic
entity through the force of their will. Unless god is with you in
some fashion you will be crushed or controlled most likely both.
IMHO most of the people who post to this forum who believe they
are contacting and controlling demons are mentally unstable,
lying, deluded, trippin on bad acid or all of the above.
If a demonic entity ever really shows up at one of your evocations
and decides to show you its true nature you will know - you will
also know that your human will is no match for this being - its
like standing next to a mountain.
And you will know something else fear.........as you have never
known fear before in your life......
Over & out for now
Flyinghighagain
First off let me commend you for answering in a civil style, I
realize that many would have been rather put off by my comments.
And secondly, thank you for a very interesting post.
Now, regarding Jesus, I am not quite sure where you stand. Often
there is a GIGANTIC difference between magickal history and
mundane history. A cmmon view amongst non-religous historians is
ferinstance that Jesus absolutely did not plan to be executed and
rise from the dead. And since Hume it has been commonly accepted
that ANY explanation is more likely than the explanation "and then
a miracle happened", in the case of Jesus that would be; who knows
what happened, but we can start from the assumption that the poor
victim of a political deathsentence did not die and rise from the
dead.
On a magickal level however there are at least half a dozen
different christs that may be of ... well, some of them are
identical to G d, ferchrissake!
Experience can be interpreted in many different ways. To interpret
in terms of already entrenched beliefs systems is a good way to
stay imprisoned in them.
However, far more interesting than our differences to explore I
find the story you tell. And I am really curious about:
How did Satan answer your forefathers prayer?
How have your experiences with demons been?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pAmphAge
Interesting stuff here, and I respect your comments, however I
find that "power of Christ" seems to have more effect over *other
people* than Goetic spirits. They aren't all that interested in
Christ, I have to tell you (they were around long before him). You
are better off with God names from the old testament--and even
BETTER off with names and verses from the Book of the Law.
However, if it were my choice to dominate another human's will, I
would for sure grab the new testament and a cross.
:-) May I ask you pamphage, am I correct in the assumption that
you have not yet accepted Jesus Christ as your own personal savior
:-)
What I am after is that perhaps ones personal relationship with a
deity does affect its efficiency in a ritual.
"THe power of christ compels you!" is a formula which to me gains
its power from three sources: humour, the christ and max von zydow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Was I Deleted, Again?
flyinhighagain, I agree with your assertion - the student is not
the master - and I agree as much with your perception and logic.
However, you have included a movie of the week in your post.
From my experience with a demonic entity, I did call upon God's
name and compel the demon to depart. I was not in a protective
circle or had a banishing of any sort. The entity did not appear
in a triangle. In fact, the entity came to me after I was writing
a fictional account of ThoTh, a name I was not familiar with at
the time. I stood trying to discount its validity for 2-3 long
minutes before calling upon God as the Bible instructs. I am
convinced, particularly by the quickness of its departure, that I
had encountered something with a personal Will that exists outside
of my 16 year old's imagination.
It is an experience I will never forget.
I agree that most of the posts I read here sound as you describe.
Your movie of the week, with its attendant lack of detail, throws
me for a loop.
JQP
....though the heavens fall.
Like van Helsing said: "You will find that most of your references
to popular culture lost on me." :-) I must ask you what it is,
because it is a reference I do not understand: what do you mean by
"a movie of the week"?
If it is ok for you to ansewer such I am curious about how
happened with the demon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab
Interesting this about Jesus, and being aware that this is getting
off topic, I can't resist... Did any of you EVOKE him? After all,
he IS a mythological character.
The thought has occured to me, however I have always felt that it
would be to disrespectful.
:-) However I understand that you are the kind of guy who traps
the inneffable tetragrammaton in a small box and torture him with
sulphuric fumes? :-)
Grab 08-17-2004 10:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noxlux
On a magickal level however there are at least half a dozen
different christs that may be of ... well, some of them are
identical to G d, ferchrissake!
Please expand on that! (But perhaps in a new thread about Jesus?)
Quote:
The thought has occured to me, however I have always felt that it
would be to disrespectful.
However I understand that you are the kind of guy who traps the
inneffable tetragrammaton in a small box and torture him with
sulphuric fumes?
It wasn't me! *points nervously in a random direction* :lol:
But seriously, why does it feel more disrespectful to evoke Jesus
than, say, the great archangel Raphael or any god like Marduk or
Hermes? Think about that.
Anyway, back on topic: it's fascinating that Jesus and the cross
seems to be a valid safety button when evoking Goetia demons. Is
there even any relationship between these ancient demons and
Jesus?
Personally, I use tetragrammaton and similar, to great effect,
despite not believing in the jewish God (outside of ritual). For
instance, there is protection in the Hexagram of Solomon. Did
anyone of you experiment with it? How does is compare to the
cross?
The cross, the hexagram and Jesus are all symbols of Tiphareth or
solar energy - perhaps that is the clue to understand this.
/Grab
Noxlux 08-17-2004 11:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab
Please expand on that! (But perhaps in a new thread about Jesus?)
Regarding half a dozen magickal christs, I will just give a couple
of keywords (and please note that I do not include the historical
Jesus amongst them:-) ) : the mainstream christ - manufactured by
the catholic church and hollywood, the gnostic christ - most often
some docetic version, the authoritiative christ according to the
gospel of mark, the cosmic christ according to the gospel of John,
the christ of the vampire and horror movies and so forth. I think
the requirement for this is just that one has a personal
relationship with the christ in question - otherwise ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab
Personally, I use tetragrammaton and similar, to great effect,
despite not believing in the jewish God (outside of ritual). For
instance, there is protection in the Hexagram of Solomon. Did
anyone of you experiment with it? How does is compare to the
cross?
I think the magickians intuition is his best guide regarding this.
hehehehehehehehe (real explicit, aint I?) hehehehehehe
ChaosTech 08-17-2004 07:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Anyway, back on topic: it's fascinating that Jesus and the cross
seems to be a valid safety button when evoking Goetia demons. Is
there even any relationship between these ancient demons and
Jesus?
Personally, I use tetragrammaton and similar, to great effect,
despite not believing in the jewish God (outside of ritual). For
instance, there is protection in the Hexagram of Solomon. Did
anyone of you experiment with it? How does is compare to the
cross?
The cross, the hexagram and Jesus are all symbols of Tiphareth or
solar energy - perhaps that is the clue to understand this.
Indeed. For those that wish to investigate this further, I would
suggest reading about the human brain, or better put human brains.
heh A few other things worth mentioning would be kundalini,
ancient cosmology, and even basic hermeticism to say a few.
Nero 08-17-2004 09:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab
The cross, the hexagram and Jesus are all symbols of Tiphareth or
solar energy - perhaps that is the clue to understand this.
/Grab
You have hit the nail on the head Grab. Tiphareth is also the seat
of your higher self. That is a powerful thing to fall back on when
you are in trouble. Just something to think about.
flyinhighagain 08-17-2004 10:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Various
Deleted Again -
�I agree that most of the posts I read here sound as you describe.
Your movie of the week, with its attendant lack of detail, throws
me for a loop.�
It was more like a bad after school special than a movie of the
week my friend. Do you really believe I would share the details of
this experience with strangers to doubt, dissect & mock? Believe
the story or not I give it only as a basis for my current world
view.
Malachius -
�I think you not only got your asses kicked but I believe you were
in a fashion converted to Christ by this experience. I see more
respect & faith for him in you than I see in most of the so called
Christians I run into now and then�
I respect his power & authority � which I have seen first hand
Conversion? Yup that me Father fylinhighagain J
Nuxlox �
�First off let me commend you for answering in a civil style, I
realize that many would have been rather put off by my comments.
And secondly, thank you for a very interesting post�
<<<<<<<Anger & resentment are pointless & you are most welcome for
the post>>>>>>>>
�Now, regarding Jesus, I am not quite sure where you stand. Often
there is a GIGANTIC difference between magickal history and
mundane history. A cmmon view amongst non-religous historians is
ferinstance that Jesus absolutely did not plan to be executed and
rise from the dead. And since Hume it has been commonly accepted
that ANY explanation is more likely than the explanation "and then
a miracle happened", in the case of Jesus that would be; who knows
what happened, but we can start from the assumption that the poor
victim of a political deathsentence did not die and rise from the
dead�
<<<<<I of course disagree with the above � to me this is
blathering of fools � I have seen and felt his power �
I have not seen any entities banished in the name of Hume or non
religious humanist historians Why then would I draw the above
assumption given my experience?>>>>>>
However, far more interesting than our differences to explore I
find the story you tell. And I am really curious about:
How did Satan answer your forefathers prayer?
<<<< With money & power and the things of the world which we
wished for � we in turn paid for his favor with devotion and blood
our own & others when possible>>>
How have your experiences with demons been
<<<<<<I think I have already answered that question � they can
give you the things of this world at a great cost >>>>>
I hope you all will understand respect that I will answer no more
questions concerning my family or our history in this regard.
See ya round campus
Flyinghighagain
Noxlux 08-17-2004 11:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinhighagain
Nuxlox �
�First off let me commend you for answering in a civil style, I
realize that many would have been rather put off by my comments.
And secondly, thank you for a very interesting post�
<<<<<<<Anger & resentment are pointless & you are most welcome for
the post>>>>>>>>
�Now, regarding Jesus, I am not quite sure where you stand. Often
there is a GIGANTIC difference between magickal history and
mundane history. A cmmon view amongst non-religous historians is
ferinstance that Jesus absolutely did not plan to be executed and
rise from the dead. And since Hume it has been commonly accepted
that ANY explanation is more likely than the explanation "and then
a miracle happened", in the case of Jesus that would be; who knows
what happened, but we can start from the assumption that the poor
victim of a political deathsentence did not die and rise from the
dead�
<<<<<I of course disagree with the above � to me this is
blathering of fools � I have seen and felt his power �
I have not seen any entities banished in the name of Hume or non
religious humanist historians Why then would I draw the above
assumption given my experience?>>>>>>
Fritz Leiber suggests in Our lady of darkness a certain exorcism
for secularized people "In the names of Bach, Mozart and beethoven,
the names of Pythagoras, Newton, and Einstein, by Bertrand
Russell, Wiliam James, and Eustace Hayden, begone! All
inharmounious and disorderly shapes and forces, depart at once!"
(Now, amusing to the occultist of course is that Pythagoras
thinking, even though his name is rarely mentioned, has influenced
a great deal of occult thought, and newton of course was a
kabbahlist.)
The point I am driving towards however is that the the worship of
the rational that followed the enlightenment which was strongly
influenced by Kant and Hume has exorcized more demons historically
than christ ever did. Today most people in western society (i.e.
those that were hit by the enlightenment) don't even believe in
demons.
I assume that sounds like more blabbering of fools in your ears,
but like yourself I am not particularly after converting someone
:-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinhighagain
<<<< With money & power and the things of the world which we
wished for � we in turn paid for his favor with devotion and blood
our own & others when possible>>>
Interesting. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinhighagain
How have your experiences with demons been
<<<<<<I think I have already answered that question � they can
give you the things of this world at a great cost >>>>>
I guess I did not formulate my question very well. I will try to
rephrase it in hope that this may be within the realms of what you
may feel is ok to answer. -And if not, I have no problem
understanding that, I often refrain from "sharing" :-) What I was
after was how demons have manifested for you. How you have seen,
heard or felt them - when you are in the precense of one, what
lets you know that it is there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinhighagain
I hope you all will understand respect that I will answer no more
questions concerning my family or our history in this regard.
See ya round campus
Flyinghighagain
I am sorry to hear that, because I found that aspect of your posts
most interesting and fascinating, but of course I will respect
that.
See you round :-)
nox
Ludi 08-17-2004 11:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
newton of course was a kabbahlist.
I thought he was an alchemist...
flyinhighagain 08-18-2004 12:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noxlux
" guess I did not formulate my question very well. I will try to
rephrase it in hope that this may be within the realms of what you
may feel is ok to answer. -And if not, I have no problem
understanding that, I often refrain from "sharing" What I was
after was how demons have manifested for you. How you have seen,
heard or felt them - when you are in the presence of one, what
lets you know that it is there?"
I have seen them in many forms, astrally and otherwise. The most
profound hallmark of their manifestation is what I can only refer
to as a Presence - It is not really possible to describe this in
words - you feel them in your mind, body on every level -
conscious & non conscious- its usually a cold feeling for me but
not always - and it doesn't feel the same as if you were just cold
from temperature change. You chilled to the bone. And there is
irrational fear - even though I was brought up with them - there
was always the fear and nervousness - like you were a mouse being
eyed by a cat or bird of prey. If they came close to you felt it -
like a zone of fear - unless they were hiding - then you felt
nothing.
A strong smell - usually bad but not always can accompany their
arrival.
PK phenomena was common to our situation - especially if the
entity was upset.
As I said earlier if its a real demonic entity - it feels like
standing next to a mountain - a mountain that knows you in many
ways you may be unaware of - they are more intelligent than humans
- real demonic entities only give the pretense of stupidity - the
better to manipulate you to their ends. They can see your entire
life like a book - they know your fears, hopes - the buttons they
need to push to manipulate you.There is usually more than one -
always a stronger one hiding behind the one that manifests. They
are the most accomplished of liars and the truth must be beaten
out of them. DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU ARE TOLD UNTIL IT IS
PROVEN VALID!!!The only respect they deserve is the caution of
their ability to cause harm - they deserve no respect for their
being - they are absolutely empty of pity, forgiveness, love,
kindness any humanity - they want your service and your life
force.No matter what you see from them they do not love or like
you you are to used and destroyed if possible. They are parasitic
by nature.
Have fun :)
Hope this long winded answer helps.
Flyinhighagain
Was I Deleted, Again? 08-18-2004 01:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noxlux
Like van Helsing said: "You will find that most of your references
to popular culture lost on me." :) I must ask you what it is,
because it is a reference I do not understand: what do you mean by
"a movie of the week"?
If it is ok for you to ansewer such I am curious about how
happened with the demon?
The demon/entity departed. Just like that. It was like someone
itching to take the phone call only to find out on the other end
was a debt collector. Whooooosh!
Movie of the week = maudlin.
JQP
Grab 08-18-2004 04:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People, netiquette is to not quote 100s and 1000s of lines of
others when you post. Lets keep this place clean. Thanks!
flyinghighagain) Thank you for sharing your view, it was a most
interesting read! You say that they are accomplished liers, and
that they want to destroy me, which I happen to believe also
(except they seem eager to teach me stuff).
I can't understand why demons give us advice on how to evoke them
more safely, and then it turns out these evocations ARE safer.
IMHO, they should LIE to us about security stuff if they really
wanted to harm us. What could be the purpose of this behaviour?
/Grab
Noxlux 08-18-2004 04:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludi
I thought he was an alchemist...
He was into both kabbalah and alchemy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grab
The cross, the hexagram and Jesus are all symbols of Tiphareth or
solar energy - perhaps that is the clue to understand this.
This is no contradiction, just another angle. It has been
suggested that ceremonial magick has its roots in the attempt by
christians to use jewish thinking to prove christianity. One of
the things they did was to point out that the tetragrammaton JHVH,
if one added a Shin (which I believe by its virtue of representing
flames like the holy spirit above the disciples heads as it
descended on them) one gets JHSVH, which is of course joshua;
jesus, and the three are the same (or have been considered to be
so since the fourth century) and also different persons.
And this is a mystery :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinghighagain
I have seen them in many forms, astrally and otherwise. <snip>
They are parasitic by nature.
Thank you for a very interesting answr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grab
can't understand why demons give us advice on how to evoke them
more safely, and then it turns out these evocations ARE safer.
IMHO, they should LIE to us about security stuff if they really
wanted to harm us. What could be the purpose of this behaviour?
To dabble into metaphysics for a second, it has been suggested
that the demons are antropomorphised representations of "forces"
of nature. If that is the case it is not so strange that they do
not always act as we would expect sentient beings to - and that
the possibilities for "deceit" are immense.
Nox
Grab 08-18-2004 05:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noxlux
To dabble into metaphysics for a second, it has been suggested
that the demons are antropomorphised representations of "forces"
of nature. If that is the case it is not so strange that they do
not always act as we would expect sentient beings to - and that
the possibilities for "deceit" are immense.
Not sure if you understood me correctly... I asked why the demons
do NOT lie to us when we ask them about how to increase security
during evocations.
/Grab
Noxlux 08-18-2004 05:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab
Not sure if you understood me correctly... I asked why the demons
do NOT lie to us when we ask them about how to increase security
during evocations.
/Grab
Well, if they are "forces" of nature hidden behind our
antropomorphic representations, then it is not necessarily so
strange that they do not behave as we expect. Of course this
hypothesis does not automatically generate an explicit
representation of why the demons don't lie - it just leaves plenty
of room for their non-lying behavior; they may simply not "care".
Nox
Grab 08-18-2004 05:36 AM
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That sounds a bit far-fetched to me. If they are are out to get
me, they should trap me into a position where they can hurt me,
not the opposite.
Also, for comparison, I read that it was the egyptian gods that
are the forces of nature, and the hellenic gods are merely symbols
of such forces, and the demon were just mean entities stuck on the
lowest level of existence.
/Grab
Was I Deleted, Again? 08-18-2004 05:45 AM
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Why Not Kick The Shit Out Of Us Folk...
I might humbly suggest that from the Christian paradigm the entire
Bible is a contract and full of contraxctual agreements from the
first male given authority of the beasts, the first marriage and
the Christ bruised in the heel crushing the serpent's head, and
beyond.
Accordingly, there seems to be boundaries within which demonic
forces are charged to engage in their work: ie The Book of Job.
Also, logically, it would seem that the template for a God dealing
with Humans is so evidently bound with rules (God cannot lie, the
rainbow, the meek shall inherit the earth, etc ) that demonic
forces follow the same template.
These are just my thoughts for what they are worth.
JQP
...though the heavens fall.
Nero 08-23-2004 06:34 PM
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Just one more thing to add. Instead of using a simple banishing
pentagram while in a bad spot try using the banner of the west. If
you are familer with the GD system then it can be a very powerful
device against an evil spirit.
fiat_lux_777 08-23-2004 07:04 PM
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93
I think the most serious danger in demonic evocation lies within
the magician him (or her) self. I believe evocation (actually,
whether demonic or otherwise) quite perilous for anyone in an
imbalanced psychological state. I also feel evocation is dangerous
for anyone who hasn't learnt the "virtue" of discrimination.
From my personal experience, I theorise that the demons exploit
our own weaknesses, magnifying and turning them back on us.
The most apparent danger with evocation is mental/spiritual
breakdown. It is rare to hear of someone being slayed by a demon -
although not so rare to hear of a person being possessed slaying
another! The internet is rife with Goetia dabblers who have lost
touch with reality - from those purporting to be the physical
manifestation of *insert God name here*, to those ranting about
the dangers of flouride in our water (put there by the lizard
people of course!!).
93 93/93
Todd
malachius 08-26-2004 06:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fiat
Fiat wrote
I think the most serious danger in demonic evocation lies within
the magician him (or her) self. I believe evocation (actually,
whether demonic or otherwise) quite perilous for anyone in an
imbalanced psychological state. I also feel evocation is dangerous
for anyone who hasn't learnt the "virtue" of discrimination.
<<IMHO this would disqualify the vast majority who are involved
with the occult - I absolutley agree with your every word :)>>>
From my personal experience, I theorise that the demons exploit
our own weaknesses, magnifying and turning them back on us.
<<<I would again agree and who of us is with out great weakness
>>>
The most apparent danger with evocation is mental/spiritual
breakdown. It is rare to hear of someone being slayed by a demon -
although not so rare to hear of a person being possessed slaying
another! The internet is rife with Goetia dabblers who have lost
touch with reality - from those purporting to be the physical
manifestation of *insert God name here*, to those ranting about
the dangers of flouride in our water (put there by the lizard
people of course!!).
<<<<<You mean to say you don't believe in the lizard people!!!!!!!
outrageous!!!!!!
Much easier to break a persons mind than their body
From reading this and some of your other posts
I think you may just be one of those rarest of individuals - you
are indeed as wise as other people think you are :)
Malachius - >>>>>
Ekron 08-26-2004 02:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed Todd I couldn't agree more.
What do we initially see when we look into the dark mirror of
scrying....ourselves. Demons only reflect back what they see, this
is certainly within my own experiences. It is not demons who
destroy us for we are quite capable of doing this ourselves.
Only recently I was talking with a shop owner who's front door had
just been smashed. When the police cought the person he told them
"the devil made me do it". If only the devil could restrict us to
just smashing glass, life might be ok
bhoot 08-26-2004 02:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I ask kali for protection during such times. But I guess one must
have a personal relation with some goddess/god to ask their
protection.
fiat_lux_777 08-26-2004 04:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
93
Dear Malachius,
Quote:
From reading this and some of your other posts I think you may
just be one of those rarest of individuals - you are indeed as
wise as other people think you are
Thank you for the compliment! Don't quite know how to reply to
this........ :)
93 93/93
Todd
malachius 08-27-2004 07:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you are welcome
You may reply by continuing to share your knowledge & wisdom.
I am new to this forum and to the internet in general, and
I must say I am surprised by the number of knowledgeble & generous
people who contribute here.
This forum is truly a wonderful resource.
Malachius
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