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Ceremonial Magic
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- - Spirit control, A follow up from ‘A Change in the Room.
(http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=4459)
Deckard 07-02-2004 04:36 AM
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Spirit control, A follow up from ‘A Change in the Room.
This is in follow up to a topic from before the first hack. My
original question was how to get the spirit to manifest. I would
repost it as a quote here but my save was ‘destroyed’. I received
excellent tips from Ashnook, Master of the Abyss, I Am and others
(pardon if you are not mentioned).
While I now enjoy the fruits of your advice, I am having trouble
with control of the spirit. Here is part of the following
morning’s journal
Amazing…Orobas made his presence known before the first sentence
of the call was finished by communicating. It was the most unusual
method I had ever encountered. Pictures, words, sentence
fragments. sometimes vague, but quite understandable. I began by
asking what he could achieve but he interrupted me by demanding …
You may correctly assume I am working with Goetic entities. I have
read most of the posts in these past three iterations of OF.
Most information seems to center around;
1.Knowing I have the right to command
2.Threat and curses of the spirit
3.Vibration of holy names
4.Exerting my will on the spirit
5.Some suggest offering tribute in various forms. (I would think
to let the spirit ask for something after it agreed to do my will
and make it conditional on success of some request)
I would very much appreciate advice on those 5 points as well as
others that have worked for you. I welcome specifics but do not
wish to be thought a ‘spell beggar’. I would be grateful for any
offsite links or information of any kind. I feel further
evocations would be detrimental until I have a better grasp of how
to control ‘them’.
Feel free to PM me if you deem any of your answers too sensitive
to post. Thank you for your time.
Deckard
I AM 07-03-2004 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard
While I now enjoy the fruits of your advice, I am having trouble
with control of the spirit. Here is part of the following
morning’s journal
Amazing…Orobas made his presence known before the first sentence
of the call was finished by communicating. It was the most unusual
method I had ever encountered. Pictures, words, sentence
fragments. sometimes vague, but quite understandable. I began by
asking what he could achieve but he interrupted me by demanding …
You may correctly assume I am working with Goetic entities. I have
read most of the posts in these past three iterations of OF.
Most information seems to center around;
1.Knowing I have the right to command
2.Threat and curses of the spirit
3.Vibration of holy names
4.Exerting my will on the spirit
5.Some suggest offering tribute in various forms. (I would think
to let the spirit ask for something after it agreed to do my will
and make it conditional on success of some request)
I would very much appreciate advice on those 5 points as well as
others that have worked for you. I welcome specifics but do not
wish to be thought a ‘spell beggar’. I would be grateful for any
offsite links or information of any kind. I feel further
evocations would be detrimental until I have a better grasp of how
to control ‘them’.
Feel free to PM me if you deem any of your answers too sensitive
to post. Thank you for your time.
Deckard
Hey my friend!
First, I would like a little more information. You say that the
Goetic interrupted you with demands. Can you be more specific and
lay out the conversation as you remember it?
Second, you discuss what you feel is a lack of control. What
happened that gave you this impression?
As a quick response to your questions I will say the following.
1. When "Commanding" the Goetic is it, in my experience, critical
that you have embraced your "DIVINITY". That is NOT the Christian
God. It is more knowing that YOU are God. When commanding as "GOD"
these Entities pay attention. KNOW that they are there to answer
you.
2. In my experience threats and curses are unnecessary. If you
have embraced your "Divinity" correctly the Entities already know
you have the capability to compell them. IMO, threats and curses
were included in the Grimoires because the authors knew that many
who used the Grimoires would be inexperienced. In hopes of not
offending anyone, if the Magickian is fully capable threats and
curses are unnecessary. It is only the inexperienced Magickian
that needs these. Instead, try talking to them as EQUALS. I think
you will be surprised at the response.
3. The vibration of the Names is not something that someone can
tell you. However, you will KNOW when you have vibrated them
correctly. There will be no doubt in your mind. Using the Great
Voice will assist you in achieving the vibrations you will need.
4. By definition, the Goetic has appeared BECAUSE of the
Magickian's will that it be there. Again, embracing "Divinity"
makes the Magickian more than they are. Done correctly the Goetics
WILL respond. Again, in my experience, the Goetics respond very
well if the Magickian KNOWS he or she is a God.
5. As far as tribute goes I will say the following. ANY tribute
must be acceptable to the Magickian. It must be something that the
Magickian is WILLING to give freely. A Goetic's first demand for
tribute OPENS NEGOTIATIONS. They can ask for the moon but often
settle for a picture of it. Understand? Blood sacrifice, or the
offering of any body fluid, is unnecessary in my experience. Many
Goetics will attempt to bend you to their will and tribute is one
way that this occurs. You need to be in control at all times
during the negotiations.
These Entities WILL test the Magickian. They will test the Circle,
test the Magickian's control, and test the ability of the
Magickian to discern truth. However they can also be very helpful.
If Magickians are in control of themselves then they are in
control of the Ceremony.
Just my few thoughts. I look forward to the responses of others. I
hope this quick answer proves helpful.
Humbly, I AM
Deckard 07-04-2004 04:35 PM
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First of all this is all astral. I spent months trying to get
something to show up in the room. My method of skrying is to close
my eyes in an already dark room.
Quote:
Partial Quote of I AM:
First, I would like a little more information. You say that the
Goetic interrupted you with demands. Can you be more specific and
lay out the conversation as you remember it?
Second, you discuss what you feel is a lack of control. What
happened that gave you this impression?
It seems so stupid but here goes...He showed me that he wanted me
to go to a bar and drink two beers. I had the idea that he might
have wanted to 'ride along' for this, but it just occured to me
that he could have been trying to get me into some situaton, which
he would engineer. I asked him where? (my thoughts are directed to
the entity in my best aproximation of the great voice) He showed
me a waxing cresent moon. I thought, at the time, this was part of
a lable like on a microbrewed beer. It occures to me now that it
could have been part of a bar sign or a time of the month. This
seems not specific enough for me to act on and yes, a little bit
crazy. Wouldn't the first thought (during the evokation) be the
one he sent me? My response_was, that would be fine if and when my
demands were satisfied. Again I asked what his office and areas of
influence is. He then sort of dazzled me with seemingly unrelated
thoughts (hard to remember). I kept trying to break in with what I
needed him to accomplish. I felt like a cat meowing for food only
to have a feather waved at him instead. It was distracting. He was
running the show. I tried repeating myself to no avail. I tried
asking him how he would fufill my request. Not even a vague reply
was given.
I must have fallen asleep after this point because I woke up
having remembered a vivid dream. In it a female was addressing
another problem I have. Not the reason I called Orobas. But one of
many problems I mentioned to him
Could she have been one of his ministering spirits or just my
imagination gone amuck?
Quote:
Partial Quote of I AM:
1. When "Commanding" the Goetic is it, in my experience, critical
that you have embraced your "DIVINITY". That is NOT the Christian
God. It is more knowing that YOU are God. When commanding as "GOD"
these Entities pay attention. KNOW that they are there to answer
you.
Yes. I must have gotten too excited from it just showing up. It
was kind of jawdropping expreience.
Quote:
Partial Quote of I AM:
2. In my experience threats and curses are unnecessary. If you
have embraced your "Divinity" correctly the Entities already know
you have the capability to compell them. IMO, threats and curses
were included in the Grimoires because the authors knew that many
who used the Grimoires would be inexperienced. In hopes of not
offending anyone, if the Magickian is fully capable threats and
curses are unnecessary. It is only the inexperienced Magickian
that needs these. Instead, try talking to them as EQUALS. I think
you will be surprised at the response.
This also sounds like great advice. I will use that approach.
Quote:
Partial Quote of I AM:
3. The vibration of the Names is not something that someone can
tell you. However, you will KNOW when you have vibrated them
correctly. There will be no doubt in your mind. Using the Great
Voice will assist you in achieving the vibrations you will need.
This KNOWING has not happened for me. I will try to hunt down
information on how to practice/develop that.
Quote:
Partial Quote of I AM:
4. By definition, the Goetic has appeared BECAUSE of the
Magickian's will that it be there. Again, embracing "Divinity"
makes the Magickian more than they are. Done correctly the Goetics
WILL respond. Again, in my experience, the Goetics respond very
well if the Magickian KNOWS he or she is a God.
Obviously I need to work on this.
Quote:
Partial Quote of I AM:
...ANY tribute must be acceptable to the Magickian. It must be
something that the Magickian is WILLING to give freely. A Goetic's
first demand for tribute OPENS NEGOTIATIONS. They can ask for the
moon but often settle for a picture of it...
This is so damn funny!!! I don't mean to discredit it. It's that I
see the truth in it and it made me laugh! Better than I have in a
long time. If Ipos or Aim were around they would say I should
probably get out more.:p
Quote:
Partial Quote of I AM:
These Entities WILL test the Magickian. They will test the Circle,
test the Magickian's control, and test the ability of the
Magickian to discern truth. However they can also be very helpful.
If Magickians are in control of themselves then they are in
control of the Ceremony.
I am the proof of this.
Quote:
Partial Quote of I AM:
Just my few thoughts. I look forward to the responses of others. I
hope this quick answer proves helpful.
I am truely greatfull for your time and wisdom!
Kaymon 07-04-2004 09:38 PM
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I find it all very highly amusing that people still seek control
over these beings..
If these beings can do what is said that they can do, then there
are two options.
1. You are NOT summoning a demon
2. You are summoning a different spirit who is pretending to be a
demon.
It does not make sense that any demon that is more powerful than
any very good magician would bend to anyone's will. These beings
have been around since man, so a long time.
If I was a demon then I wouldnt bend to your pathetic will, I
would most likely either kill you or ignore you..
Therefore I suggest, that ceremonial magicians are drawing the
attention of other entities and not demons, although there would
be some cases where ceremonial magicians have summoned demons.
If you ARE god then why can you do what the demon does? It is
foolish to think that you are a god to these creatures.. that is
if you are summoning real demons.
Believe what you will, but I refuse to believe that people who
believe that they are gods and presume they can banish powerful
entities willy nilly, actually summon demons.
Kaymon
I AM 07-05-2004 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaymon
I find it all very highly amusing that people still seek control
over these beings..
If these beings can do what is said that they can do, then there
are two options.
1. You are NOT summoning a demon
2. You are summoning a different spirit who is pretending to be a
demon.
It does not make sense that any demon that is more powerful than
any very good magician would bend to anyone's will. These beings
have been around since man, so a long time.
If I was a demon then I wouldnt bend to your pathetic will, I
would most likely either kill you or ignore you..
Therefore I suggest, that ceremonial magicians are drawing the
attention of other entities and not demons, although there would
be some cases where ceremonial magicians have summoned demons.
If you ARE god then why can you do what the demon does? It is
foolish to think that you are a god to these creatures.. that is
if you are summoning real demons.
Believe what you will, but I refuse to believe that people who
believe that they are gods and presume they can banish powerful
entities willy nilly, actually summon demons.
Kaymon
From your comments it does not sound like you have ever practiced
Ceremonial Magick. If you had you would know that banishing IS
effective and that you CAN summon these beings.
Your beliefs are your choice. However, belief is no substitute for
knowledge and experience. Perhaps if you actually tried summoning
a Goetic then your posts would be different.
Please do not try impose your limits on others.
I AM
Leviathan 07-05-2004 01:04 AM
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I AM, well said.
Kaymon, return to the Athiest Forum.
With Love,
Aleister
______________
"Get the mind into the habit of calling up the opposite to every
thought that may arise."- Crowley
Leviathan 07-05-2004 01:08 AM
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A Question...
If you are the Circle, what is it exactly that protects you from
an entity trying to force it's way inside? Is it the Light/Fire of
your Soul that acts like a shield, burning every impure form?
Kaymon 07-05-2004 02:24 AM
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my point was that if demons can do as it is written what they can
do, why could they even be banished a demon that can sink warships
but cannot touch a magician inside his circle??
Does not make sense if you think about it logically.
Leviathan - I havent come from atheist forum so Im not intending
on going back there.
I practice magik whether or not you would call it ceremonial magik
is a different matter.
My practice is different to yours.. much different I do not fall
into the false trappings of egos like you appear to.
Maybe once you summon a REAL demon then you can lecture me on how
to practice magik..
however your limits are restricting you I am not implacing mine on
anyone.
Goetics and demons are the same... OHH scarey thought aint it..
just that Solomon managed to write down some but there are lot and
lots more.
If you wish you could always try it my way and see what your
result ends up as.. however I have tried it your way and the
responses I got were very hostile.]
Kaymon
Ludi 07-05-2004 02:56 AM
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Quote:
My practice is different to yours.. much different I do not fall
into the false trappings of egos like you appear to.
Quote:
Serve no master but your own ambition
*
Kaymon 07-05-2004 03:05 AM
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Ambition is different to ego.
An ego is what you make out yourself to be.
An ambition is something you wish to achieve.
Do not see where you are coming from ? :confused:
Kaymon
I AM 07-05-2004 03:41 AM
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Alright. Everyone has had their say. This has gotten WAY OFF
TOPIC. Let's get back on topic shall we?
I AM
Deckard 07-05-2004 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Kaymon said: Therefore I suggest, that ceremonial magicians are
drawing the attention of other entities and not demons, although
there would be some cases where ceremonial magicians have summoned
demons.
I cannot disagree with this opinion. A am not exactly sure what
they are. But I do not believe they just popped in from a lake of
fire where they have been roasting for their insubordination. In
Summoning Spirits, it is recomened that the exorcist obtain proof
of the entity's identity. In my admitted ignorance I always skip
this step. Do any of you, actually summoning, do this? If so I
would like to know of your successes and failures. If not apt here
please start a new topic.
Kaymon 07-05-2004 05:19 AM
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Would it really matter?
Im sure there are lots of demons that share the same name.
So imagine for a minute that you call upon fred.. Fred's reason
for being is to fix hairdryers.
Lots of people are summoning fred at the orders of what he is
being asked to do keeps going up and up so all the freds group
together in order to answer the request of fixing hairdryers.
So if you infact get the wrong entity that you want to summon but
they end up serving the same purpose then does it really matter?
Kaymon
Iamu 07-05-2004 05:40 AM
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Quote:
my point was that if demons can do as it is written what they can
do, why could they even be banished a demon that can sink warships
but cannot touch a magician inside his circle??
Because summoning a demon and running a ship are games played by
different rules. Generally, a demon won't just swoop in and start
tearinng the hull apart with their bare hands--they'll influence
the weather, or the entities responsible for the weather, or
they'll play with the heads of the crew. If the crew is
sufficiently protected magically, they'll be immune to the demon's
mind games. If the weather is sufficiently stabilized magically,
the demon can't sink the ship with a storm.
In this case, a warship isn't exactly a pillar of stability,
because they tend not to employ magicians. No matter how powerful
an army, if you attack from a completely unguarded angle, of
course you're gonna be able to do some damage even with very
limited resources at your disposal.
Quote:
It does not make sense that any demon that is more powerful than
any very good magician would bend to anyone's will. These beings
have been around since man, so a long time.
If I was a demon then I wouldnt bend to your pathetic will, I
would most likely either kill you or ignore you...
Firstly, it's not necessarily the consequences the demon would
receive DIRECTLY from the magician, but often those it would
receive indirectly, coming from higher powers who have a stake in
the magician's work. I'm noticing word gets round on astral pretty
damn quickly.
Secondly, the demons often ask for compensation. Their requests
often seem obscure to us, but I'm sure they're more often than not
very pointed and calcuted. Seeing as the demons exist on a plane
where time and space pose virtually no boundary, I'd imagine they
know quite a bit more about the big picture, and can often bring
about some serious effects through the smallest of details. Not to
mention, if things go well between the demon and the magician, a
powerful magician sympathetic to the demon is probably worth more
than the joy it'd get from squashing him like a bug at an earlier
point in his development.
And in reply to your latest post, you're assuming these entities
function like you do on a particular level. Who said the demon
can't comfortably be in a 1000 places at once?
Kaymon 07-05-2004 09:03 PM
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To my knowledge a demon has no one to answer to other than to more
powerful demons.
A demon would not do a task set that would get them in trouble
with bigger stronger demons that could kick their ass.
I know not of any deities that influence demons as they stand on
their own two feet if they wish to have them and are not swayed
easily.
And again to my knowledge when a demon is summoned they are only
summoned at one time and in one place.. seeming as they live out
of space and time, you would think this is not so. However we see
time as linear and they see time as relative, so theoritically
they could but they don't. One job at one time they cannot be at
1000 places at once although I do not know the reason why.
Kaymon
Iamu 07-05-2004 09:27 PM
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Quote:
I know not of any deities that influence demons as they stand on
their own two feet if they wish to have them and are not swayed
easily.
Funny... I guess all those divine names in Solomon's triangle and
circle are there for purely decorative purposes. And the demons
only observe their power because they think it's funny how deluded
all us magicians are.
Quote:
However we see time as linear and they see time as relative, so
theoritically they could but they don't. One job at one time they
cannot be at 1000 places at once although I do not know the reason
why.
This is total contradiction to what I've heard from most people
who practice Goetia and have asked a demon about this. Not that
those people are the ultimate authority, but you haven't even
given a reason why this is so, even after acknowledging that it
should be possible for them to do this. Do you have any proof at
all, maybe a source to cite, or are you just making things up to
fit your argument?
I AM 07-05-2004 09:35 PM
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It IS important to always validate what the Entity tells you. And
regardless what others might say the Name and Sigil are UNIQUE to
that particular Demon. Additionally the appearance is also a
unique identifier in my experience. This is true for ANY Entity
that is summoned.
When reading the Goetia notice that a UNIQUE Sigil and Name of
Calling are associated with each Demon. The magickian does not
randomly call for "Fred" when performing a Goetic operation. The
Magickian calls for a specific entity using a UNIQUE Name of
calling and a UNIQUE Sigil. If the Name of Calling and the Sigil
that the magickian uses are the correct ones for that entity,
there is only ONE Entity that CAN appear if the Ritual is
performed correctly AND THE MAGICKIAN IS IN CONTROL. I have not
had an experience where this did NOT occur. That said, after the
initial summoning the Magickian may not care if an underling is
sent in subsequent summonings so long as the magickian's
requirements are met and it was AGREED to by the Magickian.
There are MANY magickians in the Forum that have successfully
summoned Goetics. They have detailed their experiences not only in
this forum but in the previous forums before they were hacked. You
need to listen to them. The summoning experiences these
magickian's have shared ring TRUE to others that have summoned
successfully. These magickians have CREDIBILITY concerning Goetic
operations. I submit that those who actually do summon these
beings REALLY DO know what they are talking about. Those that do
not summon these beings can only guess.
Finally, a successful summoning experience is MORE than just
evokation. A successful experience:
- requires that the magickian had control which means that the
"hostile" actions of the Demon, if they occured, CEASED on command
of the magickian.
- requires that the magickian successfully communicated their
desires to the Goetic and that the Entity acknowledged those
desires.
- requires that the Demon PERFORMED the requested action within
the SPECIFIED time period or ANSWERED correctly the question(s)
given to them.
- requires that the Demon departed when given liscense to do so
and that NO ILL EFFECTS remained after Banishing.
There are other elements but you get the idea.
Humbly, I AM
Kaymon 07-05-2004 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamu
Funny... I guess all those divine names in Solomon's triangle and
circle are there for purely decorative purposes. And the demons
only observe their power because they think it's funny how deluded
all us magicians are.
This is total contradiction to what I've heard from most people
who practice Goetia and have asked a demon about this. Not that
those people are the ultimate authority, but you haven't even
given a reason why this is so, even after acknowledging that it
should be possible for them to do this. Do you have any proof at
all, maybe a source to cite, or are you just making things up to
fit your argument?
Demons aren't controlled by divine names?? As I have said before I
do not believe that people using this form of summoning are
actually summoning demons.
There was a post somewhere on a site and I shall try and find it
and give you the link in a PM? or if you wish on here so everyone
can have a look? I would not want trouble brought to this
particular site that I go to so everyone would have to be on their
best behaviour;)
Time is relative, 1 is not followed by 2 and 3 etc 1, 2, 3 all
occupy the same space as said by another demon.
Quote:
1 is not followed by 2 followed by 3 and so on. 1 occupies the
same time and space as 2 and so on. Nothing is linear.
The demon who relayed this information is called Berkaial.
Kaymon
Just because we have a difference in opinion does not mean that I
will not listen to your side of things.
Kaymon 07-05-2004 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
It IS important to always validate what the Entity tells you. And
regardless what others might say the Name and Sigil are UNIQUE to
that particular Demon. Additionally the appearance is also a
unique identifier in my experience. This is true for ANY Entity
that is summoned.
When reading the Goetia notice that a UNIQUE Sigil and Name of
Calling are associated with each Demon. The magickian does not
randomly call for "Fred" when performing a Goetic operation.
How close is the actual goetia you have today in comparrison to
the one Solomon used? or the one that Agrippa used? It is very
likely that seals in the book are not correct anymore, repetitive
use of sigils down the ages has most likely changed the way they
seals look, too much of a curve here and there, a rough mistake of
circles get the idea? tiny mistakes that may have been repetited
again and again and more mistakes made so that the goetia seals
you have today does not look like anything you have today.
Quote:
There are MANY magickians in the Forum that have successfully
summoned Goetics. They have detailed their experiences not only in
this forum but in the previous forums before they were hacked. You
need to listen to them. The summoning experiences these
magickian's have shared ring TRUE to others that have summoned
successfully. These magickians have CREDIBILITY concerning Goetic
operations. I submit that those who actually do summon these
beings REALLY DO know what they are talking about. Those that do
not summon these beings can only guess.
Perphaps you do not summon demons but other entities? Try and
except that possibility as there are more entities than just
demons. I will also except the possibility that everything I have
learnt to believe about ceremonial magicians could be wrong and
that they actually do summon demons.
Kaymon
Kinjo 07-05-2004 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
Finally, a successful summoning experience is MORE than just
evokation. A successful experience:
- requires that the magickian had control which means that the
"hostile" actions of the Demon, if they occured, CEASED on command
of the magickian.
- requires that the magickian successfully communicated their
desires to the Goetic and that the Entity acknowledged those
desires.
- requires that the Demon PERFORMED the requested action within
the SPECIFIED time period or ANSWERED correctly the question(s)
given to them.
- requires that the Demon departed when given liscense to do so
and that NO ILL EFFECTS remained after Banishing.
There are other elements but you get the idea.
Humbly, I AM
another great contribution by iam. very well said. just the info i
need.
you are the engine of this forum i am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
- requires that the magickian had control which means that the
"hostile" actions of the Demon, if they occured, CEASED on command
of the magickian.
i am, the question here, is how :?:
by the knowledge and will power and faith of the magician of
divinity :?:
confirm pls.
if it's true, how do you acquire that faith :?:
I AM 07-05-2004 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaymon
How close is the actual goetia you have today in comparrison to
the one Solomon used? or the one that Agrippa used? It is very
likely that seals in the book are not correct anymore, repetitive
use of sigils down the ages has most likely changed the way they
seals look, too much of a curve here and there, a rough mistake of
circles get the idea? tiny mistakes that may have been repetited
again and again and more mistakes made so that the goetia seals
you have today does not look like anything you have today.
[/color]
Perphaps you do not summon demons but other entities? Try and
except that possibility as there are more entities than just
demons. I will also except the possibility that everything I have
learnt to believe about ceremonial magicians could be wrong and
that they actually do summon demons.
Kaymon
I will relate an early experience that I had with a Goetic
summoning. When I was first starting years ago I performed a
summoning experience and used a "Goetia SEAL" from Waite's
"Cermonial Magick" book. The Entity did answer the summoning,
CORRECTED the SEAL, and then granted my request. Waite's book, as
I later learned from experience, had many of the SEALS drawn
incorrectly...presumably to protect the innocent (BTW, let this be
a caution for members that wish to contact Goetic Entities...you
do not want to use Waite's book for your reference). In this case,
the Entity provided me with the correct SEAL and it did match the
actual Goetia. From an authenticity point of view this worked
pretty well for me. I have found that the Entity will ensure you
have the correct SEAL if it really matters.
From that point on I used the SEALS found in the Goetia and I
validated them with the Entities that I summoned. I also
discovered through these experiences that "close is good enough"
when using SEALS. Do not misunderstand me, we need to get the
SEALS as close to accurate as possible. That said, I found that
the Entities responded even if I drew the SEALS badly (I am not an
artist), corrected me when I did something wrong, and that it
validated in other sources.
I would also like to address something else. I wish we could throw
out the Christian concepts of "Good and Evil" , "Heaven and Hell",
and "Angels and Demons" when discussing the Greater and Lesser
Keys of Solomon.
The Goetic Demons can heal and do many other "GOOD" things and
Angels can RUIN your entire day, or someone else's for that
matter, by doing "BAD" things. In my experience, the Christian
concepts of Good and Evil do not apply when talking about
"Angelic" and "Demonic" forces. I am not even certain that the
human mind can even comprehend their full nature. I just know that
how we view good and evil and how "Angels and Demons" view good
and evil are very different.
It is my opinion, based on my experience, that Angelic and Demonic
forces are just different forces with different methods of action.
I do not view the Entities of the Goetia as Demons (Not in the
Christian sense). That is just my personal opinion. I will leave
it to the religious among the members to argue whether they
correspond to the Biblical account of Angels and Demons. That is
NOT a discussion I am interested in participating in.
Simularly, many Demons (Non-Goetia) today are the Gods of
yesterday. When one religion supplanted another, the old Gods
tended to become Demons. If this is all it takes to make an Entity
a Demon then we need to change our definitions, or at least our
understanding, of Demonic forces.
I hope this makes some of my views more clear.
Humbly, I AM
Tzimtzum 07-05-2004 10:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaymon
How close is the actual goetia you have today in comparrison to
the one Solomon used? or the one that Agrippa used? It is very
likely that seals in the book are not correct anymore, repetitive
use of sigils down the ages has most likely changed the way they
seals look, too much of a curve here and there, a rough mistake of
circles get the idea? tiny mistakes that may have been repetited
again and again and more mistakes made so that the goetia seals
you have today does not look like anything you have today.
[/color]
Perphaps you do not summon demons but other entities? Try and
except that possibility as there are more entities than just
demons. I will also except the possibility that everything I have
learnt to believe about ceremonial magicians could be wrong and
that they actually do summon demons.
Kaymon
Well, considering that I don't use the seals from the Solamnic
texts (at least not for some time), I would say that possibility
exists, though the likelyhood is very remote. The seal itself is
important, but not for it's absolute accuracy. They could more
accurately be simply considered markers, the name and intent is
more important. I've had the opportunity to study a first edition
of De Occulta Philosophiae, and the changes, if any, are simply to
make them even more accurate. Yes, the overall accuracy of the
information has imporoved greatly over the last 500 years due to
diligent study and improved scholarship (much thanks to A.E. Waite
and M. Mathers).
Ekron 07-05-2004 11:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Following on from what Tzimtzum says re. accuracy of sigils I
would like to bring to ones attention the new editiion of 'The
Lesser Key of Solomon' ed. by Joseph Paterson, published 2001. If
I may just quote the acknowledgement, "I would like to thank the
British Museum for allowing me to study the manuscripts firsthand,
and for their help in preparing microfilm copies. I am
particularly grateful for the high quality negative of Sloane
3825, which they prepared specially".
So if anyone is in doubt as to the accuracy of these sigils I
would recommend this book.
I AM 07-05-2004 11:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinjo
another great contribution by iam. very well said. just the info i
need.
you are the engine of this forum i am.
That's funny. I have always considered members such as yourself as
the "engine" of the CM Forum. I would liken myself more to a worn
out spark plug wire. Frater Manjet would probably agree, YOUNGSTER
that he is!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinjo
i am, the question here, is how :?:
by the knowledge and will power and faith of the magician of
divinity :?:
confirm pls.
if it's true, how do you acquire that faith :?:
It is not a matter of faith. Understand that you are a God and
approach Ritual in that fashion. See it in your mind. FEEL it in
your body and soul. As Above, So Below. The Grounding Exercise I
provided in the Forums prior to them being hacked will assist you
in this process. If you do not have it, let me know and I will
re-post it.
I AM
Tzimtzum 07-05-2004 11:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
It is not a matter of faith. Understand that you are a God and
approach Ritual in that fashion. See it in your mind. FEEL it in
your body and soul. As Above, So Below. The Grounding Exercise I
provided in the Forums prior to them being hacked will assist you
in this process. If you do not have it, let me know and I will
re-post it.
I AM
Well put. In regard to magickal work, the moment you start to
doubt your inherit divinity, is the moment you put yourself in
peril.
I AM 07-05-2004 11:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzimtzum
The seal itself is important, but not for it's absolute accuracy.
They could more accurately be simply considered markers, the name
and intent is more important.
The same Entity that corrected my SEAL taught me this as well. It
is true. However, one needs to ensure their INTENT is focused.
Just as concentration on the Sigil itself will also call the
Entity (another caution).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzimtzum
Yes, the overall accuracy of the information has imporoved greatly
over the last 500 years due to diligent study and improved
scholarship (much thanks to A.E. Waite and M. Mathers).
We owe a lot to these work horses. My earlier comments about Waite
were not meant to be critical of his contributions to Magick. The
errors WERE intentional. These two men, and others like them,
provided a library of information for Magickians that came after.
We are in their debt.
Humbly, I AM
Tzimtzum 07-06-2004 12:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
The same Entity that corrected my SEAL taught me this as well. It
is true. However, one needs to ensure their INTENT is focused.
Just as concentration on the Sigil itself will also call the
Entity (another caution).
We owe a lot to these work horses. My earlier comments about Waite
were not meant to be critical of his contributions to Magick. The
errors WERE intentional. These two men, and others like them,
provided a library of information for Magickians that came after.
We are in their debt.
Humbly, I AM
*blush* I had that happen to me long ago, I was staring a little
too intently at Furfur's sigil (I was in a public library at the
time) and the room started turning cold and all the hairs on my
body stood up. I immediately "cleaned" the room and scanned it
intently, but he hadn't stuck around.
Ahh, seems that everyone has some criticism regarding Waite (me
too). Though, his scholarship is truly top-notch, Holy Kabbalah
alone would almost be considered a life's work. It's an incerdible
treatise on the subject, one of the best ever written... if
perhaps a bit too ponderous. ;)
SaintGeorge 07-06-2004 12:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Goetic Demons can heal and do many other "GOOD" things and
Angels can RUIN your entire day, or someone else's for that
matter, by doing "BAD" things. In my experience, the Christian
concepts of Good and Evil do not apply when talking about
"Angelic" and
Quote:
Demonic" forces. I am not even certain that the human mind can
even comprehend their full nature. I just know that how we view
good and evil and how "Angels and Demons" view good and evil are
very different.
It is my opinion, based on my experience, that Angelic and Demonic
forces are just different forces with different methods of action.
I do not view the Entities of the Goetia as Demons (Not in the
Christian sense).
Bravo IAM well said, I must say it do concern me at times, the
fact that some times the
symbology is credited with to much factualness, rather than
understanding that they are meant as representations only of the
forces we use, while accepting of course that they are imbuded
with tremendous effect by constant use over the ages. So if Demons
are what you want to see, demons is what you'll get. As for the
divinity within, in my case the Godess of course, well that seems
to inexperienced me to be the first of the changes one experiences
in developing magickal practices, and I am so pleased to hear it
is not considered at least in this forum, an ego trip of the first
order.
and thanks to the original poster, this thread has turned into a
great learning topic.
Ekron 07-06-2004 01:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to reiterate the power in sigils. By simply using prayer and
meditation upon the spirits sigil I've contacted and received help
from both Orobas and Tharsis recently.
Tzimtzum 07-06-2004 02:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintGeorge
The Goetic Demons can heal and do many other "GOOD" things and
Angels can RUIN your entire day, or someone else's for that
matter, by doing "BAD" things. In my experience, the Christian
concepts of Good and Evil do not apply when talking about
"Angelic" and
That's quite interesting. I've never had an angel of any sort do
any "bad" things to me, let alone ruin my day. Though, I've had
most goetia try to push the limits of my circle, and they weren't
exactly trying to give me a "noogie" either. There are some rather
destructive and deadly angels under the province of Tzaphkiel and
Sammael, but most mages don't know about them, much less have had
any dealings with them.
I AM 07-06-2004 10:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzimtzum
That's quite interesting. I've never had an angel of any sort do
any "bad" things to me, let alone ruin my day. Though, I've had
most goetia try to push the limits of my circle, and they weren't
exactly trying to give me a "noogie" either. There are some rather
destructive and deadly angels under the province of Tzaphkiel and
Sammael, but most mages don't know about them, much less have had
any dealings with them.
Actually she was requoting my earlier post with those words. And I
will say again that Angels CAN RUIN your entire day. Some of the
Angelic forces have awesome destructive power.
Humbly, I AM
Tzimtzum 07-06-2004 11:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
Actually she was requoting my earlier post with those words. And I
will say again that Angels CAN RUIN your entire day. Some of the
Angelic forces have awesome destructive power.
Humbly, I AM
I agree. I was simply saying though that most mages don't usually
encounter those types.
The likelihood of getting harmed or harrassed is much much higher
with demons than it is with angels. Exponentially so.
Radiant Star 07-07-2004 12:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apologies up front as off topic:
I AM says:
Quote:
I would liken myself more to a worn out spark plug wire.
Rays says: DON'T be so ridiculous! Plenty of life in you yet
judging by your posts which suggest valuable experience and wisdom
to share.
Get a grip young man! says the middle aged lady, Rays
morphine 07-07-2004 02:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed a learning post and very very interesting.
Few questions:
1) The CM adepts generally recommend practising a lot especially
on the banishing side before any goetic evocation.
Till when a person shall practise?..I know my question might sound
stupid because it can vary from individual to individual but
still.
I feel more practise is recommended for the following aspects
Banishing,interpretation of the situation and messages given by
the goetic entity and ability to control the situation.
2) Invoking the Godform-In order to request a demon for a specific
need,the magus has to bring the divinity within.
Won't the invocation of Godform in itself shall allow the magus to
command the demon too?
3) Considering the adoration towards the demon,won't it be enough
banishing to protect the magus?
Generally the factor of fear and precaution are exercised as a
part of any goetic evocation.
Won't the faith in the demon leaning towards admiration and love
account for a successful magickal experience?
Thanks for your replies
Morphine
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