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Talking Points - The
Tree of Life (http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=3486)
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 05:57 PM
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Talking Points - The Tree of Life
qblsnopp -
I split this out of another topic because I felt it would make a
great foundation to the Talking Points Topics. While the
originator may not have wanted to write the introduction, he did.
I AM
http://www.occultforums.com/viewtop...p=136311#136311
Logos wrote: You should check out m1thr0s site:
www.abrahadabra.com
He has quite a few awesome color representations of the same thing
you just described.
I have, and it sure is enlightening, but I've got a different view
of the Tree of Life and the Four Worlds/Bardo States which I think
the Tree and the Sephiroth are based on. (This is my view. I know
I just said it, but I guess it's worth saying again. This is *my*
view). I guess this is going to go outside the topic of this
thread, but I'll let the moderator move it to its proper place if
that is the case. (A Talking Point about the Tree of Life might be
a good idea, but I sure as hell don't feel like writing the
introduction for such a topic.)
First off, the Four Worlds are "movable": That is, you can both
separate them by graphically moving them apart and merge them by
moving them together. The former is what happened during the
Breaking of the Vessels as well as the Great Fall (eating of the
Tree of Knowlede of Good and Evil). The Great Fall is just a
reproduction of the original fault of the Breaking of the Vessels.
Both incidents separates what should have been connected.
It's easier to understand by looking at the results I guess, so:
[PICTURE HERE]
The top line is Tree 1, 2, 3 and 4. The bottom line is Tree 5 and
6.
The first Tree describes the state before the Breaking of the
Vessels and the Great Fall, the second describes the state after
the Breaking but before the Fall, the third and fourth describes
the state after both the Breaking and the Fall. The Sephiroth in
the middle describes consciousness and are like "focus points" of
the Four Worlds. The Sephiroth to the right and left describe
intersections of force and form between the Four Worlds.
It should be obvious why Daath is NOT a Sephira, and it should be
obvious what caused it and the Abyss to come into existance.
As soon as you start to separate the Four Worlds, the question
arises about where to put the intersecting Sephiroth. This could
be debated for centuries, I bet. I find it easier to let the
Sephiroth remain where they are in the Kicher Tree (the one you
GD/Thelema/Hermetic/Qabbalah people are familiar with). In this
view, the intersection between Atziluth and Briah goes from
Atziluth to Briah, the intersection between Briah and Yetzirah
goes from Briah to Yetzirah, and so on. This results in Tree 5 and
6, on the bottom line.
The fifth Tree keeps the original pathways from the original first
Tree, the sixth Tree throws some paths around to get the Kircher
Tree.
I guess I should add something about the paths as well. If the
Four Worlds are states of consciousness, and the Sephiroth are
intersections or focus points of the Four Worlds, the paths are
processes which brings consciousness between the different focus
points, intersections and states of consiousness. There are 22
paths drawn on the different Trees, but there are 27 process all
in all. 1-9, 10-90 and 100-900.
The first nine "creates" Briah, the second nine "creates" Yetzirah
and the third nine joins and merges everything together. Take a
look at http://www.psyche.com/psyche/psyche.html to get a better
understanding of this. (It makes more sense to use the Cube of
Space to understand the different processes, but by mapping them
to the Tree of Life it's possible to get more out of both.)
Back to the Tree. My guess is that the Kircher Tree tries to
describe the state that we're working to get in place, not the
actual state for most people. The third (or even fourth) Tree is a
better description of the state most people find themselves in.
If you're stuck in the third Tree, and your consciousness is
moving around in Yetzirah, you won't even have a connection to
Chesed, Geburah and Tiphareth... they're just out of your reach.
But by merging Yetzirah with Briah, you'll get there eventually.
In the mean time, you can jump between the two states. This helps
solve the problem of "crossing the Abyss". There are more than one
Abyss... and just crossing them aren't going to make the Worlds
merge... merging them is an active process you'll have to work and
work and work on...
I can write much more about this, but first I wanna see some
reactions.
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 05:58 PM
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qblsnopp -
I AM wrote:
I split this out of another topic because I felt it would make a
great foundation to the Talking Points Topics. While the
originator may not have wanted to write the introduction, he did.
Well, what I would have wanted in an introduction to the Tree of
Life is missing in this post. Some history, some connections with
other models like the Cube of Space or the Bardo States or the
Tarot or the Aleph-Beth or... it goes on and on.
Historically speaking, it would be interesting for most people to
read about Merkabah (which focuses on Briah) and, perhaps, the
Cube of Space; and the step from Merkabah to Kabbalah and the Tree
of Life (which, in a way, "introduced" Ein-Sof and Atziluth
(giving cause to Yetzirah and Assiah). You have to understand a
lot of the philosophy and theology during these times to see how
the Tree evolved out of Gnosticism, NeoPlatonism, Merkabah,
Hermeticism, Syncreticism, Pythagorean numbers and so on and so
forth.
Anyway, I posted a bunch of relevant links in another thread...
these links will have to do for now. I'd also recommend reading
some books by Scholem and Kaplan. A lot of the symbology between
Merkabah, the Cube of Space, Kabbalah, the Tree of Life, Cabbalah,
Qabbalah and the Tarot is pretty mixed up and easy to merge in
ways which weren't intended.
The Tree of Life
Leon Jacobowitz Efron
http://pws.prserv.net/leon/Kabbalah...les/treeof.html
Tree of Life Models
http://www.geocities.com/xeroiii/Ka...fLifeModels.htm
The 32 Paths of Wisdom
Rawn Clark
http://www.jwmt.org/v1n3/32paths.html
Revived Qabala: Kabbalah: Maaesh/Ma'aesh Bereshit/Bereshyt
Carlo Suares
http://www.psyche.com/psyche/psyche.html
A History of the Occult Tarot 1870 -- 1970
Ronald Decker and Michael Dummett
http://mirror01.iptelecom.net.ua/~grdoor/cab-hot.html
KABBALAH/CABBALAH
Christine Payne-Towler
http://www.astroprofile.com/tarotdocs/Kaballa.pdf
The Anatomy of the Body of God
Frater Achad
http://wolf.mind.net/library/ancient/qabala/body.htm
Cabbalah and Qabalah History
M.Alan Kazlev
http://www.kheper.net/topics/Kabbal...ianKabbalah.htm
http://www.kheper.net/topics/Hermeticism/Qabalah.htm
Kabbalah and the Tree of Life
Moe Sizlac
http://www.geocities.com/jussaymoe/TOL/tol3.htm
The Tree of Life Corrected
Dirk Gillabel
http://www.soul-guidance.com/houseo...eoflifecorr.htm
Last edited by qblsnopp on Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:45 pm; edited 1
time in total
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 05:58 PM
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I AM -
Thank you very much for your unintended contribution! You have
provided a wonderful foundation that I suspect will generate MUCH
conversation by many knowledgable people.
Humbly, I AM
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 05:59 PM
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I AM - Thank you very much for your unintended contribution! You
have provided a wonderful foundation that I suspect will generate
MUCH conversation by many knowledgable people.
Humbly, I AM
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 05:59 PM
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Master of the Abyss -
I had a rather surprising insight recently, which I'd like to
share because it seems to fit here. The Kircher Tree can be
rearranged in a way that makes all paths the same length, by using
a 3D model instead of a 2D one. I don't think this has much
significance, but it seems a great meditation topic to me. I'm
also proud of having figured it out by myself. By the way, there
is exactly one solution - you can't arrange the sephiroth with
equal-length paths between them in any other way (not in 3D at
least).
Look here for a rough 3D model:
http://www.ritmag.info/otzchiim.wrl If you haven't used VRML
before, you might have to install a plug-in and figure out how to
navigate first. The model is by no means perfect (building 3D
models without WYSIWYG sucks), but should get the idea across.
_________________
Greetings, powerful magician. Did you know over 27000 people are
dying from starvation today?
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 06:00 PM
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m1thr0s -
Oh goodie...TREEEES!!!
My favorite food...
that's a very nice set of links qblsnopp - I've been looking for
an online Achad link for some time without success...danke.
I'm going to look over these links and then get back to the
conversation. I'm thinking we might want to draw in some other
trees as well at some point here...Celtic
Tree...Sumerian...assorted Chinese and Hindu trees etc...there's a
general misunderstanding sometimes that the Tree of Life is
exclusive to Western Qabbalah which it is not...
m1thr0s
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 06:00 PM
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Frater Neshama -
Nice list of links. Here are a few more that might be of interest:
The Jewish Kabbalah:
http://pws.prserv.net/leon/Kabbalah-articles/index.html
Another Jewish Kabbalistic Link:
http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/%7Eelseg...ot/Sefirot.html
And one more:
http://www.kabbalah.com/k/index.php...gle&kw=kabbalah
Colin Low's Link Page:
http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/
Another good Link Page:
http://realmagick.com/articles/38/2038-related.html
And the Anatomy of the Star Goddess. This is not strictly a
qabalistic site, but it is much more than it appears. See what you
think of it:
http://zero-point.tripod.com/stargoddess/anatomy.html
And, for an interactive site that has a LOT of information on the
Qabalah, along with some very intelligent and dedicated Qabalists,
check this one out:
http://www.magesofqabalah.com/forum/
In Pax et Lux,
Frater N.
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 06:35 PM
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qblsnopp -
m1thr0s wrote:
I'm going to look over these links and then get back to the
conversation. I'm thinking we might want to draw in some other
trees as well at some point here...Celtic
Tree...Sumerian...assorted Chinese and Hindu trees etc...there's a
general misunderstanding sometimes that the Tree of Life is
exclusive to Western Qabbalah which it is not...
I like the Tibetan Buddhism "Endless Knot" as well:
http://www.twilightbridge.com/hobbi...buddha/knot.htm wrote:
The Endless Knot (Skt. shrivatsa; Tib. dpal be'u):
The endless knot is a closed, graphic ornament composed of
right-angled, intertwined lines. It is conjectured that it may
have evolved from an ancient naga symbol with two stylized snakes.
This latter image signifies the dramatic interplay and interaction
of the opposing forces in the dualistic world of manifestation,
leading to their union, and ultimately to harmony in the universe.
This fact is amply reflected in the symmetrical and regular form
of the endless knot.
The intertwining of lines reminds us how all phenomena are
conjoined and yoked together as a closed cycle of cause and
effect. Thus the whole composition is a pattern that is closed on
in itself with no gaps, leading to a representational form of
great simplicity and fully balanced harmony.
Since all phenomena are interrelated, the placing of the endless
knot on a gift or greeting card is understood to establish an
auspicious connection between the giver and the recipient. At the
same time, the recipient is goaded to righteous karma, being
reminded that future positive effects have their roots in the
causes of the present. This is because the knot represents a
connection, a link with our fates, binding us to our karmic
destiny. Not surprisingly, this is one of the most favorite
symbols in Tibetan Buddhism, and often occurs independently on its
own.
Since the knot has no beginning or end it also symbolizes the
infinite wisdom of the Buddha.
http://www.spiritlight.com/sacred_geometry_forms.htm wrote:
One of the eight sacred emblems of Tibetan Buddhism, this geometry
forms ten enclosures and symbolizes the endless cycle of death and
rebirth until illumination. (The core Buddhist insight underlying
this symbol is: addiction and aversion lead to delusion, which is
the ongoing source of all suffering.)
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 06:35 PM
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Yeah - the "auspicious knot" rules...I made one out of stained
glass...hangs in my kitchen window...powerful tool.
I want to suggest a quick protocol to this thread as I am hoping
it continues on for awhile. Many of us have strong feelings about
the Tree of Life and this can easily turn to conflict. I am
something of an expert at conflict since I've probably stepped
into just about every kind of poop there is...
I want to suggest we stringently avoid broad-sweeping
generalizations, foregone conclusions and/or assumptions regarding
what others should or should not be able to see as "obvious".
Comments like this one...
Quote:
It should be obvious why Daath is NOT a Sephira, and it should be
obvious what caused it and the Abyss to come into existance.
...are generally not good form in my opinion and tend to assume
others should be in agreement on the basis of some nominal
offering of proof. It has to be remembered that these kinds of
proofs are highly subjective and any one of them might require a
whole book or more to make their case altogether convincingly. I
know Fr. N has said he does not believe that Daath is a sepheroth
whereas I happen to believe it is - sort of - I believe it
qualifies as a "not sepheroth" in the same way that numerical
grammar and syntax qualify as "not numbers". We could feesably
debate this one point for weeks and not arrive at a clear
consensus either way with dozens of proofs offered up on both
sides. In the statement above it is NOT "obvious" to me why Daath
is not a sephira though I am certainly aware of this position
generally.
Sorry to single out that one phrase - I might just as easily have
dug out one of my own someplace without looking too hard. Those of
us with strong ideas may tend to do this without even realizing it
sometimes. If we can try to avoid this, I think that this
discussion will fare better and we will all feel more comfortable
asking "why do you think this", etc...
I have very clear reasons for the kind of tree arrangement I work
with and am prepared to answer just about anything in relation to
this - at the same time I am fascinated by other systems as well
and hope to remain open to all worthwhile possibilities...
m1thr0s
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 06:36 PM
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Here, m1thr0s, the "Tree that is not a Tree" seems apropos now.
qblsnoop, please explain why Da'ath is not a Sephira, now. This
tree assumes that it is, and that it serves as the "Source of the
Tree."
BTW, this is not as easy to refute as it seems. Be careful:
[img]file:///F:/PDF/Magick/viewtopic.php_files/attrib.gif[/img]
Edit: I almost forgot, here's a special link that helps. This is
not a test -- this is a question stemming from experience. It was
just a very difficult experience, and thus, a very dificult
question. Good Luck!!
http://www.realm-of-shade.com/gematria/
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 06:37 PM
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Frater N.,
Oh that's right! You've revised your view since then haven't you!
This forum has a bad influence on us all...
Hey, at least you know I listen to the stuff you say!
Thanks for the tree & link. I'll give it the usual scrubbing...
Love your new mascot by the way...
I did a stained glass piece like that one too...very kool...
m1thr0s
_________________
shahnawaz 06-12-2004 06:38 PM
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fiat_lux_777 -
I think anyone interested in the EQ could do no better than study
the work of Jake Stratton Kent, the Hermetic & Alchemical Order of
Q.B.L.H. and the G.A.C. -
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/7770/
The problem with many so-called systems of English Qaballa is that
they are not a true Qaballa, but a system of gematria - big
difference. Also, they fail to fulfill many of the blatantly
apparent numerical attributions of Liber AL.
Some of the points in this particular website stand out, namely -
Quote:
The NAEQ is not based on a revised Tree of Life, which is
discussed by Crowley as a necessary task for the New Aeon in Book
of Thoth. There is little existing evidence highlighting how it is
possible to place the letters on the existing Tree, or the
relationship of the NAEQ to a revised order. Without
correspondence to the Tree, a gematria system does not become a
"kiblah", regardless of how many holy books it consults or is
designed to interpret
Incorrect. The NAEQ posits a three Tree system - but details on
this are only provided to initiates of the various Orders listed
above.
Quote:
The results are not clear-cut; in other words, extremely fancy
math must be used to create most results
Absolute rubbish. One of the things English Qaballa has going in
its favour is the lack of ability to "fudge" a word. In Hebrew
(and sometime even Arabic or Greek) there may be more than one way
to spell a word - especially if the gematrist is transliterating
rather than translating. This rarely happens with English. You
can't try to explain to me that C-A-R could also be spelled K-A-R.
Just a few points which, as always, reflect my opinion only
Love is the law, love under will.
Todd
www.sacred-magick.com
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