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Mmothra07-20-2004, 03:09 AM
Nalyd23
06-12-2004, 02:02 AM
"Magic is the Highest, most Absolute, and most Divine Knowledge of
Natural Philosophy, advanced in its works and wonderful operations
by a right understanding of the inward and occult virtue of
things; so that true Agents being applied to proper Patients,
strange and admirable effects will thereby be produced. Whence
magicians are profound and diligent searchers into Nature; they,
because of their skill, know how to anticipate an effect, the
which to the vulgar shall seem to be a miracle." - The Goetia of
the Lemegeton of King Solomon
Aleister Crowley had these things to say in Magick Book 4 :
Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in
conformity with Will.
Every intentional act is a Magickal act.
Magick is the Science of understanding oneself and one's
conditions. It is the Art of applying that understanding in
action.
Crowley's definitions seem to be generally accepted throughout the
occult community but every practitioner will have their own
interpretation of what Magick "is" or what it seems to be. Now the
thread is open to give beginners your own twist to maybe help
clarify this seemingly simple little question.
Nalyd23
06-12-2004, 02:20 AM
I will start this off with my own interpretation of how I view
Magick and how I distinguish it from stage magic. There is really
not that much difference if looked at this way : Stage magic
(pulling rabbits out of hats) is sleight of hand illusions done to
fool onlookers. Magick (with a "K") is sleight of mind illusions
to fool yourself. I've always liked this definition and it works
for me.:D
whimsy
06-13-2004, 07:12 PM
here's my (first) attempt to define magic(k):
if life is all about perception, then to control your perception
in order to use Change as you will, is magic.
Things are the way they are because we've all agreed that that's
the way they are, in general. An act of magic is when we're
convinced we're experiencing something that doesn't fit into the
conceptual reality we've all agreed upon. that's not saying magick
is being tricked into thinking an illusion is real, but rather,
seeing through the illusion - seeing something the way it really
is for the first time.
What working magic is, is having a strong sense of self and what's
around you to not only envision it being different, but to MAKE it
different. Each and every one of us is born with the ability to
affect the world around us. Our very bodies are super-conductors.
Energy is bouncing off of and radiating from just about
everything. If we are capable of harnessing electricity, why not
the energies inside us? Electromagnetic energy. Our 'will'.
So what is magic(k)? I AM MAGIC(K).
Mmothra
06-13-2004, 10:46 PM
I don't recall where I heard or read it but I quite like the
alteration of Crowley's famous definition ("Magick is the Science
and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.") to:
"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change in consciousness
to occur in conformity with Will."
Anyone remember who came up with that? It's a subtle but
significant change.
Prax
06-13-2004, 11:02 PM
Hmm.. I am pretty much a beginner (as in, I have never done magic
before), but I pretty much agree with Crowley. Here is my
interpretation in my own words:
- Magic is the manipulation of energy with yourself as the main
conduit. It is a science. It's as scientific as any science, it's
just that we don't know the exact details.. yet. :D The universe
is magical.. every tiny bit of it.
- The two main forces of magic are creation and void (just think
positive and negative).. really, it's just about flow
manipulation. This "flow", I guess I'll just call "mana".
- I have an idea that all living things can be conduits of mana
because they have a certain energy wave/emmanation pattern.. I
call it the T-wave. This allows them to absorb and cycle through
mana. Some people have mal-functioning T-waves. I think most
test-tube babies of the future will have T-wave problems.
Everything else can be perfectly replicated (molecules and all)
except for this special wave. Without it, these subtle energies
will damage your system.
- Without mana (flow), you die/age. Stagnation brings about death.
When you get filled with it (speed of light!), you stop aging.
Life begins when you first start absorbing mana. You age until you
fill up with it. Most living things on Earth either cycle mana too
slowly (I guess carbon-based bodies aren't the most efficient for
the job?) or there isn't a whole whackload of mana of Earth to be
cycled (and this is why most/all of us age!).
- Magic is life. We are surrounded with it and we live through it.
Now isn't that just a full load of theorizing? YAH! Good thing I
don't practice magic.. otherwise.. I might prove myself wrong in a
very unpleasant way. :)
- Prax, who doesn't necessarily practice what she preaches.
Nalyd23
06-13-2004, 11:31 PM
"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change in consciousness
to occur in conformity with Will."That sounds a bit Wilsonian but
I can't be sure. I have heard it as well.
fiat_lux_777
06-14-2004, 02:43 AM
I don't recall where I heard or read it but I quite like the
alteration of Crowley's famous definition ("Magick is the Science
and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.") to:
"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change in consciousness
to occur in conformity with Will."
Anyone remember who came up with that? It's a subtle but
significant change.
93
Dion Fortune
93 93/93
Todd
Mmothra
06-14-2004, 09:33 AM
Thanks, Todd! I have been reading quite a bit of her stuff
lately...glad to know that something stuck!
Daleth
06-14-2004, 09:58 AM
Ew, Crowley. By his definition, making breakfast is a magical act.
Picking your nose is a magical act. EVERYTHING is a magical act.
It's far too broad and sweeping a definition to be any use. This
is why I don't lay much stock with Crowley's work. He was more a
nut and a showman than a magician. If you look carefully, you can
find some useful information in his works, but not much.
You'll note, first, that I'm not attaching a k to magic. That's
because the practice doesn't make sense. The word is defined by
context. If you say "Hey, David Blaine was doind some great magic
when he pulled that rabbit out of that hat," we know that David
Blaine is a stage magician and you're not talking about the
occult. If you say "Whoa, that invocation you did last night was
some creepy magic," we know you're talking about the occult and
not stage magic. There is not a realistic situation in which you
cannot tell in what way the word magic is being used by context.
If we want to define magic, we need to limit its definition to
include the things we (as a community) already commonly consider
"magic" and exclude things we commonly consider mundane. ie, our
definition should include, say, astral travel, and exclude picking
one's nose. The definition should work for the majority of the
occult community, and be close enough to the definition most
people already have subconsciously chosen so that it does not have
to be explained repeatedly and relearned.
So, taking this into account, here's a decent definition to use:
"Any phenomena appearing to be created by an individual that does
not have an accepted scientific explanation."
Of course, I'm sure you can see at least a few flaws in the
definition right off the bat, but it's a start, and far less broad
and sweeping than Crowley's catch-all definition.
Nalyd23
06-14-2004, 04:16 PM
Well Daleth, you might want to take these arguments to this thread
- Commentary on Theorems?
(http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=3474). I agree with
the above definitions sounding broad, but they're not as broad as
you may think. And if someone wants to consider "nose-picking"
Magickal, that is their choice. :D
Prax
06-14-2004, 04:21 PM
I like the broad sweeping term that anything is magic. It just
depends on degree and skill.
Has anyone come up with a magical ranking kind of system? Like:
"Zero level magic is the mundane stuff--being able to breathe and
think is 0-level magic. Prayer is level-1 magic... [and so on..]".
Saying that magic is beyond scientific explanation makes it seem..
hmm.. I don't know.. apple-pie-in-the-sky? (oogly boogly hocus
pocus). but I get what you're saying, Daleth. When most people
here talk about magic, they are usually talking about level-1+
magic (depends on what a level-1 is though.. hmm).
I think we need a system like that includes some sort fo ranking
and a lot of classification. Of course, it then starts to sound
very D&D like, and people might start going around shouting they
are level 1000000 magic users and so forth... but I do think it
simplifies things quite a bit for the beginners (aka, ME!) and it
sounds.. fun! It makes me want to write a book.. but since I know
very little compared to most of the OF members.. I'm pretty sure
I'd just end up leading my readers astray and into the dark pits
of ineptitude.. :D
Have any OF members here written any such books for the amatuer
magician? Perhaps even made a webpage themselves for beginners? I
think that would be really useful.
whimsy
06-14-2004, 05:25 PM
Mmothra said:
"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change in consciousness
to occur in conformity with Will."
(whimsy bows her cute little red head to Mmothra, hand over heart,
winks...)
fiat_lux_777
06-15-2004, 04:58 AM
93
By his definition, making breakfast is a magical act. Picking your
nose is a magical act. EVERYTHING is a magical act.
Not every act is a magickal act - every intentional act is a
magickal act - big difference.
He was more a nut and a showman than a magician. If you look
carefully, you can find some useful information in his works, but
not much.
I disagree - when you have published and accomplished what Crowley
managed to do in his lifetime *then* you are qualified to make
sweeping statements such as this...
You'll note, first, that I'm not attaching a k to magic. That's
because the practice doesn't make sense.
Apart from the usual explanation that adding a k helps
differentiate between stage illusion and occultism, the reason
Crowley appended the "K" is both for the purposes of gematria and
to denote "kteis", a significant aspect of Crowley's magick ;)
If we want to define magic, we need to limit its definition to
include the things we (as a community) already commonly consider
"magic" and exclude things we commonly consider mundane. ie, our
definition should include, say, astral travel, and exclude picking
one's nose. The definition should work for the majority of the
occult community, and be close enough to the definition most
people already have subconsciously chosen so that it does not have
to be explained repeatedly and relearned.
The compartmentalisation of "magick" and "mundane" is a gross
error, and belies a lack of understanding of what magick actually
*is*! Take, for example, the vow of the Magister Templi
(paraphrased) - "I will interpret every act/circumstance as a
particular dealing of God with my soul". Magick shouldn't be your
life, your life should be magick - it's a matter of perspective.
"Any phenomena appearing to be created by an individual that does
not have an accepted scientific explanation."
Again, this definition would be limited by our particular
point-in-time - electricity would be magick to our ancestors...to
us, it's science. Who is correct?
93 93/93
Todd
Fr.NovumOrganum
06-15-2004, 01:07 PM
I don't want this to denigrate into another flame war about
Crowley, but calling him a "showman" and not a magickian is just
plain wrong. Since this is a thread for beginners, I just wanted
to emphatically state another point.
Crowley brought magick into the modern age, which now allows us
the wide range of creativity in our practice. Along these lines,
AC was one of the first to present a rational syntesis of the
worlds traditions, blending western, eastern, and middle eastern
flavors. He was a true cultural relativist. But without going into
a long rigamarole about his accomplishments, all i'd say to a
beginner is look at book 4, the book of thoth, the deck of thoth,
or 777 to see that there is far more foundation than showmanship
in crowley.
now if you want to say he was guilty of self-promotion...that's a
different story:lol:
Lake
06-15-2004, 04:15 PM
There is not a realistic situation in which you cannot tell in
what way the word magic is being used by context. I can give you
one: "So what are your hobbies?"
"Oh, I'm really into video games, porn, role-playing games, porn,
music, did I mention porn?, oh, and, uh, magic."
"Magic? Cool. So who do like better David Copperfield or David
Blaine?"
The compartmentalisation of "magick" and "mundane" is a gross
error, and belies a lack of understanding of what magick *is*!
This is essentially a circular argument. You are criticizing the
"magick is a non-mundane act" definition by resorting to the
definition that you favor and essentially stating, "your
definition is false because mine is true." Stating your position
does not constitute an argument for your position.
In fact, any discussion about a definition of magick is virtually
guaranteed to be axiomatic and circular. I hope everyone sees how
pointless it is to argue about this.
Aldebaran
06-15-2004, 05:16 PM
Again, this definition would be limited by our particular
point-in-time - electricity would be magick to our ancestors...to
us, it's science. Who is correct?
Well IMHO, both correct. Science and Magick (or better saying
Occultism to be generical) are nothing but human escapes to handle
the astoundingly amount of mysteries that our reality gives us
every day. Just two sides of the same coin. While one is purely
rational and theoretical, the other is totally practical, but
irrational too much for some to be accepted.
When Crowley introduced the term "Magick" he wasnt talking about
something new, but an intelligent use of our resources around,
discovered or not. Dont matter if you understand such thing as the
intentional use of the unexplored powers of mind, or the
intentional use of electrons travelling through a wire. Both are
real and applicable, and depending on the "point-in-time" in
question they can be called as magick or science. Just that. :)
Nalyd23
06-15-2004, 06:12 PM
Clarke's First Law:
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something
is possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that
something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."
Clarke's Second Law:
"The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to
venture a little way past them into the impossible."
Clarke's Third Law:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."
Arthur C. Clarke's Laws may be of help here.
Albino Crow
06-15-2004, 08:46 PM
Magic(k) is a term primarily attached to the inner-space of each
and every individual. What it is, to consensus reality is merely a
projection of something solitary. Sure, there are general
guidelines and circumstances of various kinds, but working
magic(k) is a factor of the individual's 'Will' or 'Belief'. To
attach some kind of broad specifics is making the same mistake
countless Religions have. My definition of magic(k) is a simple
one:
Magick is the progressive art of self-fulfilling prophecy in
accordance with one's Will and nature.
Kuroyagi
06-16-2004, 09:10 AM
my "definition" got a bit out of hand :lol:
see this thread
http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?p=18557#post18557
magic can be all- it can be exemplified and defined through all
you want: in this aspect its completely contingent...(maybe I'll
define it differently tomorrow: lets see..)
Albino Crow
06-16-2004, 09:18 AM
In a most subtle description, I think a prerequisite for working
magick is an open-mind. Having said that, any definition of magick
is just as valid as my own.
whimsy
06-16-2004, 11:37 AM
can there ever truly be an exact definition of anything? be it
magic(k), God, Enlightenment or green?
perception is everything. and everything changes.
Son of a Montage
06-20-2004, 03:44 PM
Magick is the science and art of women getting men pregnant in
conformity with will.
*bunless hot dog falls on the floor*
Netaungrot
06-21-2004, 03:42 PM
And if that ain't magicK, Son, I don't know what is... besides
cuttlefish - which are quite plainly the epitome of magick in a
most bizzare manner.
Isn't this font color heinous?
:p
Quidgyboo
06-21-2004, 08:16 PM
Netaungrot, you should be shot; my eyes hurt! Oh and I second the
cuttlefish motion.
Benedict Achaniel
06-21-2004, 10:26 PM
Magic is a brief, most excellent moment when a person is in tune
enough with their subconscious to understand and act on all of
it's perceptions.
The Rose
06-22-2004, 02:09 AM
Prax you gave the best definition of magick that I ever heard from
a newbie. I can tell that you are taking your studies seriously
and are really studying. Alot of kids get into
wicca/paganism/witchcraft cause it is cool it is a fad and then
drop it when it is no longer cool. I can tell your really into it.
The only thing I disagree with is that there are positive and
negitive energy. I think energy is neutral. It is the witch that
makes it good or bad. Only the person can make energy positive or
negitive. When you think ill of a person you send out negitive
energy and visa versa. When a witch gathers energy to do a spell
it is the witch that makes the energy positive or negitive. The
energy that is in nature and all around us and the energy you use
to do anything like typing or breathing is neutral.
Orko
06-24-2004, 04:04 AM
Its the level of ones perspective,ability,knowledge and experience
that define magick. The more experience with such matters the less
and less distinctions like magick/mundane apply.First i avoid
using the word magick and mundane to distingish anything for
reasons ill later explain. First well use the picking the nose
action as an example. The action is secondary to be being
"magickal" in nature. Is the person aware they are picking their
nose or doing it from an instinctual habit. Is it a nervous
psychological response to some situation. Or is a conscious willed
action for an intended result. Its these modifiers of the "gross
action" that would define it magickal or not and to what degree.
Magick is being aware of the internal processes of why you are
doing it. the intentions the focus and the level of awareness of
the action is what makes it magickal. the gross material
manifestation of the motivations is secondary. A person focusing
their intent using the lenses of will,awareness and knowledge of
the world and self is magick. whether this is picking ones nose.
to causing a car to explode using telekinesis. Dont be so focused
on the surface apperance of events and look at the deeper
realities leading to those things. Its the subtle currents
underlying most "mundane" things that is magick. magick is a level
of awareness and ability to perceive and manipulate the underlying
forces that create the mundane world we perceive.
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Nalyd2307-20-2004, 03:34 AM
Magick is the Science and Art of changing Maybes and Possibilities
into Probabilities through direct Acts of Will.
Just thought I'd add that little bit.:D
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Anja07-20-2004, 05:39 PM
To me, everything is Magick, and every act a magickal act. Brewing
a cup of tea is a magickal act. It think it is so hard to define
that every practitioner have to define it for themself. Magick can
do anything, change the physical world around us, or ourself. But
we can discuss forever what it can do, if we are discussig what it
is, i must confess, i do not know, i only know that is true for
me.
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Wiseone07-20-2004, 10:19 PM
magick to me is called universal energy that is everywhere around
us and it can be manipulated as you want it. this energy is used
everyday by all of us to recharge ourselves at night and well it
is energy that we will always use. i dont know if that is how you
say it right but that is what psionics tells it as.
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Anja07-21-2004, 03:56 PM
My wouldwiw is similar to yours Wiseone. I belive all can be
magick, but this is how i use it. I have gotten alot of
inspiration from Reiki to form my world wiuw and strangly from two
fiction sources. The rpg Mage from White Wolf and the fantasy
seris Wheel of Time written by Robert Jordan. Fiction i know, but
fiction can be werry inspirational.
www.sacred-magick.com
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